Restroom issues (was Re: HR H/C)

[steph]

While I truly don’t believe that anybody is really being mean spirited here, and I have certainly not taken it that way, I have been called, in turn, insane and insensitive in comments, so I thought I would offer some elaboration.

I am not prone to snap judgments and do not judge people or institutions based on a single issue or occurrence. Anybody can have a bad day, and I believe that everybody deserves a second chance. Therefore it was only after the second incident that it was clear to me that the Hard Rock personnel were indeed enforcing a ridged official policy, versus my first experience being merely the result of a single overzealous employee or unusual mitigating circumstance. So I am not insane for trying the Hard Rock a second time, I just try to be fair. There may be other reasons to judge me insane, but this is not one of them.

The fact that I am a visitor to Las Vegas seemed to stir a decent amount of resentment towards out-of-state visitors creating havoc in town, leaving lingering problems long after they depart. I am small in stature, and am generally a quiet and demur person. I live most of my life as female, and as a result when at home in NY I am frequently found in such exciting venues as Home Depot and the supermarket, dressing and acting, I can assure you, appropriately. When out in NYC I frequent all types of establishments, as befitting a female, including some very high end, eloquent establishments such as the Plaza Hotel Bar, where I am a welcome regular. All of that is intended to convey that am not the fly-to-Vegas-so-I-can-go-out-dressed-and-go-wild girl. I know that they are out there, and I imagine that you see many during DLV (I have never been), but I can assure you that I am absolutely not one of them. I don’t need to travel to Las Vegas to put on a dress and go to the ladies room. I travel to Las Vegas a couple of times per year on business. This most recent trip was to attend the CES convention, where I attended, and did business, as Stephanie. I am totally sensitive to the impression I leave behind me, as that does reflect on others in our community, and can absolutely assure you that I always dress and act appropriately, and have NEVER done anything in Las Vegas that would have any lasting effect on those of you who reside there. In this most recent incident at the Hard Rock, my response to the Security employee, who was giving me the business for using the Ladies Room, was to apologize profusely, and then I quietly went to gather my coat and leave.

[annie]

> While I truly don’t believe that anybody is really being mean spirited
> here, and I have certainly not taken it that way, I have been called, in
> turn, insane and insensitive in comments, ...

I'm hot hearing things that way.

What I am hearing are a number of things, one being the very common escalation of an on-line conversation into something it was never intended to be.

I'm also hearing some personal frustration.

You made a statement, I requested more information, to which you replied.

Things like this (a gestapo-like restroom incident) are things that we, collectively, need to know, and an articulate first-person report is something we can use. We need to share information such as this and use it, so we can avoid trouble, and so we can steer our business to those who treat us with respect.

I don't ever want to see a person punished or subjected to any type of disrespect for reporting such an incident. IMAO, we need more first-person reports of the serious issues and incidents and I thank you for providing the details.

> Therefore it was only
> after the second incident that it was clear to me that the Hard Rock
> personnel were indeed enforcing a ridged official policy

In this particular case, I find the magnitude of the response to be what's disturbing.

A request to stay out of a restroom or to leave the property is clearly within management's rights. A show of force is clearly out of line, and unfortunately this is the second report of such show of force which we've had (the other not at the HR) within the past few years.
. . . . .

Going off on somewhat of a tangent here, I think there's one trap which we need to take some effort to avoid falling into ... This comes from my observation of how the members of the TG community tend to behave over more decades than I care to admit.

There is a propensity in the TG community to be very status-conscious, and along that line there is a tendency to divide members of the TG community into two classes, along the line of who is worthy of {something} and who is not.

The variable {something} can be any number of things, but one I've heard is along the line of who should be using the ladies room and who should not be.

Anyone who has attended a major TG event has certainly heard the proclamation of "101 reasons why I should be using the ladies room and you should not."

The criteria which divides the shoulds and the should nots can be any number of things. Gender identifier on ID, place on the transition track, label of self-identity, time "out", possession of a "letter", physical size, manner of dress, and yes, visual passability are some I've heard.

There will never be a consensus on this.

The topic of restrooms in the M-F TG community is very personal and highly sensitive. Many in our community have been involved in embarrassing and personally devastating incidents and those who have not have dealt with issues of anxiety and uncertainty.

We're never going to agree on some restroom issues, but let's please consider others and not let these issues divide us.
. . . . .

> The fact that I am a visitor to Las Vegas seemed to stir a decent amount of
> resentment towards out-of-state visitors creating havoc in town, leaving
> lingering problems long after they depart.

This is another deadly dichotomy (locals - visitors) which divides us but does not need to.

The most frequently cited issue seems to be along the line of that locals suffer the consequences when a visitor misuses a restroom.

We're all in the same boat, ladies! (gentlemen) All of us, locals and visitors, need to consider others and realize that if we misbehave, it's likely to get somebody else (on either side of any Great Divide) in trouble!

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
----------

I think I need to explain a bit more too. Sorry for it being
lengthy...

I wrote...

"Especially because of any kind of negative incident of this type, it
does make life in LV much harder for our local sisters.."

Sindee isn't the first one that has told me this. I've heard this
from many other locals, and will keep their names out of this
to respect their privacy. They can speak up if they want to
on their own. Its not just this incident. I can see and respect
why they don't come up and say something.

Any visitor AND local can cause a incident as what happened
to Steph. We can't ask, or do much for, all visitors or locals
in our transgendered community that come to or live in LV,
but we can try to inform or advise our small group that attend
DLV to try to lessen the frequency of this happening, and
that is all we can do.

I am NOT blaming Steph. As stated above, its that type
of incident. The negative reaction by HR against one of us.

I am NOT saying Steph created the problem. Again, its
the negative way management is reacting.

>From what Steph reported as in first hand, to me,
looks more like Steph is a VICTIM of someone else and
not the cause. Her experience matches MORE of the
scenario of someone innocently getting the brunt of someone
else's incident with security or mgmt, that happened sometime
before Steph got to HR. Her experience are what
locals have to endure too frequently.

Something had happened to rattle the management to come
down hard on Steph. Its doesn't look like anything that she
did, from her account of what happened, so something
caused security to act with that extreme response.

It could be another CDer, drag queen, TS, or M-to-F
person, local or visitor, caused a major confrontation
or problem for the management of HR that no one
knows about. The event was so bad HR's solution is
to be extreme on anyone else with a similar description.

That unknown person, basically destroyed the work
we as a group, locals and attendees, to give the HR mgmt
a positive view of us. What is now in its place appears
to be a very negative extreme response at that venue.

That is why I was saying be aware and careful in everything
that we do. A slip up on our part, even accidental or
non-intentional, that causes any negative reaction by a management
can have lasting repercussions to the locals, AND as Annie
has brought up, ALL of us too.

Visitors can leave after the vacation is over, the locals have
no where to go. Since the locals visit these venues more
often than a visitor over a longer period of time than any
visitor, the chances are greater that they will get such a
response more often than those just visiting LV for a short time.
That is reflected in what Sindee had to deal with, which
was the increased rougher scrutiny and security response.

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rosada Delano
----------

Is there any way that a group of DLV'ers can meet with the HR management
and talk and come to some peace accord for our benefit, and theirs.

I feel some diplomacy is in order and only by talking can feelings be
sorted out and a mutual agreement can be made. Someone needs to find out
what was their motivation for reacting negatively to Steph.

Then, the representing group needs to do whatever they think is
appropriate to find a solution and reassure the HR management that
members of our group (crossing my fingers here) are not the type that
would cause a scene or cause trouble for them, or anyone else. If it's
the bathroom, I'm sure we can put our heads together and come up with a
viable solution, or solutions that might work for all of us. Of course,
HR can always tell us to "go to hell!" But we can't say we didn't try.
And it's always better to know where a business stands, either with us
or against us. If it's the latter I'm sure the media and other TG
organizations would like to know about it. Perhaps even have a massive
boycott or protest outside the business. Remember Stonewall!!!!!

Rosada

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(This posting was entered by Rosada Delano, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Sindee Honey
----------

If you are feeling Stonewallish then suggest you contact Mel
Goodwin at the Las Vegas GLBT center. There is an upcoming
seminar on restroom issues for T folk and Mel is the Trans
Liaison for the center.

She is also incredibly wonderful, helpful and one of my favorite
people there. http://www.thecenterlv.com/ there is the homepage.

They also have a translations meeting friday nights that is worth
going to.

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(This posting was entered by Sindee Honey, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rosada Delano
----------

Do you know if they are aware of the treatment some of the DLV gals are
experiencing at the HR? Has anyone contacted them about this? Are they
doing anything about it?

I feel this is a local issue and should be dealt with locally. I'm an
out of towner and since I have not experienced the HR Harassment, I
doubt if my mentioning to Mel would be any help.

Rosada

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(This posting was entered by Rosada Delano, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Sindee Honey
----------

Try reading the information I sent you. That would be the Las Vegas
Gay Lesbian Bisexual and Transgender Center. Am pretty sure Mel, who
coordinates trans issues for the center, would be well aware of such
things as trans hostile and trans friendly places etc. Unless you
think there is an even more local resource?

And if you or I don't tell them who will? The topic covered is
bathroom issues. Am just saying if someone locally puts out info
shouldn't a reasonable person at least check that info out? I am
trying to get copies of any printed material if, for nothing else,
myself. The topics would cover a lot more than just a single bar
or casino or a single Nevada city. But would apply statewide.

JPIOT

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(This posting was entered by Sindee Honey, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: dlvdisc
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I sincerely doubt that Mel can be helpful on most issues that
concern us. Her knowledge of issues that concern us are minimal.
Her dealings with our community is more closely attuned to those
of us who are transsexual and even then it is mostly referrals
for counseling.

The best source is the "big list" which relies on US to keep
it accurate and up to date. Unfortunately the upkeep has been
at a minimum.

Nora

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(This posting was entered by dlvdisc, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
----------

I'm not a lawyer, but just thinking about what
has to be done is quite involved and time
consuming. As Rosada says it may be that it
can only be done by the locals, if they want or
consider this worthwhile to change. I can see
much of a vacation period devoted to this
effort, which will not make it a vacation.

Negotiations can take a bit of time.

To deal with this, we need some information from
HR. We need to understand their policy. That
would be the first thing to do. We need to have
it preferably in writing what exactly is the policy
as in a official document. This will explain in black
and white, and if this is a local or national policy.
It can be mailed, or just pick it up, and not waste
time with the mail service. It will determine if we
have anything to challenge them on for them to
change.

Based on that, does the written policy explain
what is happening. We need to know what
the SOP of the local HR in response to the
official policy.

From there, we need the specifics as in time and
date of the problem and what exactly happened
during the incidents, all first hand experience and
actual observation, nothing 2nd or 3rd interpretation.
This will have to be used later as examples in negotiations.

We will have our side, HR will have their security staff
and report on the incident, probably statements
from the staff that were witness or involved with the
incident and what was written in their logs.

Based on the written policy, we need to see if
there was any human interpretation issues, as in
was it a over-reactive, incorrectly interpreted
security action, or prejudicial action against
our community in general, or anything else where
the security staff may have acted on their own?

We need to be sure that the reported incidents
weren't created by our community too. Were
we wrong? If so we may not have a case for
them to change.

We also need the law as in rights of the victim on
private property, and the written law about restrooms
and the interpretations of such. Here we will see
if we have any case for them to change.

From all that, develop something for them to want
to change towards, so that they can see it is a advantage
to them, and also our group.

To change their minds, whether its a local policy
or a national it will take planning, to focus our
negotiating group to pre-guess HR's responses
and steer the conversation and control the
direction of the meeting, to successfully obtain
what our group wants.

Our group that goes has to anticipate the reaction
and have responses, direction, and goals set before
the meeting. This will take time in meetings to
prepare on our part.

We have to give incentives to give them to answer
the basic 'Why should we change for your group.'
Whatever we decide on, it has to be done on our
side, or these negotiations will be worthless. Whatever
it is, it has to worth their changing their policy or
their SOP to that policy.

We have to offer solutions, that will at least benefit
them as a business. It has to be something that will
ensure them to be able to relax their guard towards
our community, have no further incidents, and not
lose business nor be caught up in law suits or any
legal action against them arising from this agreement.

Its not that easy to do.

.. It can go on, this is just the beginning...

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)