Attention in public (was Re: Dress issues ...)

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This posting is from: annie
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>Part of being a woman in public is the attention it brings.
>Guys check you out if you have looks... Girls check you out
>if you have style.

For a very eye-opening experience, I might suggest doing
an "experiment", something along this line ...

Find an opportunity where the group is obvious in a general
public setting, or where one or more of our attendees happen
to be attracting a certain amount of attention from the
onlookers.

Go "stealth" among the normals and keep your ears open. You
will most likely be very surprised at the things you hear.

You can find such opportunities at many times during the
typical six-day DLV.

Eavesdrop on the various conversations, such as that between
those in a group of 20-something guys, between a bartender
and bar patrons, casino players whose attention has been
distracted from their slot or VP machine, conversations
among casino employees, especially security guards, etc.

I guarantee that this will be very eye-opening for you. :)

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This posting is from: Susan
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Annie I love this suggestion. I've been there. This is a topic that
would deserve a long thread. Have any of you ladies overheard remarks
about us. Usually they notice us. Some will remark. Most don't or do so
vey quietly. But they really don't care. It certainly doesn't ruin their
enjoyment of what they are doing.

Let's some of us make a point of doing that next year. We could share
our experiences. Of course you would have to dress discreetly so as not
to be noticed. But it would be an eye opener.

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This posting is from: Sarah Charles
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It can be an eye-opener to see how civilians react to crossdressers in
their midst.

I was seated at a slot machine in the Tropicana next to my wife several
years ago. I was dressed, but in a very subdued fashion, not wanting to
attract attention. As we sat there a group of 4 crossdressers, dressed
to the nines did a fast, forced march down the asile on their way to
someplace.

The crowd parted in front of them, stared and commented with the typical
"Oh My God" and "WTF's". One group of younger folks were so taken by
the spectacle that they decided to follow the group at flank speed to
where they were headed.

While no one was aggressive or openly confrontational, I was reluctant
to move for a few more minutes until it all settled down. I don't know
if any of the public had their evening ruined by the passing, but I was
kind of irritated for the attention that was drawn to that group. It
also made my wife a little concerned when it was finally time to move
along.

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This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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Doing that is a eye-opener. It wasn't
very pleasant either. So be prepared
to hear things you may not expect.

At the Boardwalk with the bathroom
incident that had happened, the
security guards followed us, standing
on the side within eye sight, wearing
dark glasses, arms crossed, staring at us,
shaking their heads left and right.
They even followed us in golf carts to
our cars in the Boardwalk parking lot.

What would be good is have a spouse
or gg walk behind or within 10 ft, someone
in male mode too would work, so that
it would be not noticable, and can record
the double takes, head turning, sudden stops,
snickering, pointing fingers and mouths wide open.

I helped out in the 'mission-outreach' with
the two brave attendees that walked down
FSE. I was actually invited to watch.

Many comments among the public wasn't
very nice, which was outside of the inner
crowd around the two missionaries. Most
in the inner area around them, were asking
them questions. That part I couldn't hear.

Another time was when our group went to
see a show at the MGM. I was again outside
of the main group that gathered at the entrance.
Most wore evening gowns, and were quite
noticable, seeing the public were in casual attire.
The recommended attire was business outfit
to evening gown. Almost all came in evening
gowns, a few came in business suits.

As Annie said, it depends on the age and
gender. I still remember the kind of comments.

Example of the common statements:

Two men at a casino bar:

"Tranny! Look Tranny!" very loud voice, Pointing finger
"OMG, a guy in a dress!" "What a d*ck-sh*t"
"Hey check it out, look at that ... thing!"
"WTF, what a ugly fu*kin' screamming tranny."
"Hey go ask one of them for a date!"
"F-you, you go ask it!" (laughing)
"Fu*k, look a that, there's a whole bunch
of them. (Laughing)" ... " "over there too"
.. "There's a whole bunch of them"
(laughing) "Hey XXX, check that one out!"
"Tranny!" (yelling) "woohoo!"
"I wish I had a camera"
"Only in Vegas, Baby" (Laughing)

Two or more women (20s):

"OMG look to the right do you see them?"
"Where?"
"That bunch over there, I think they are guys in dresses"
Pointing fingers
"(shock) OMG those ARE guys" Laughing
"In dresses (laughing, snickering), look at them" Pointing fingers.
"(scream and shock) OMG" "How gross!"
"They look so ridiculous!". Laughing
"It (dress) doesn't even fit right on him!"
"They don't even look like women! (soft scream)"
"I wouldn't be caught dead in those outfits"
"Look at that pot belly on that one, gross!" Laughing
"Look how 'big' they are!" snickering
"She's got hair on her arms!" snickering
"OMG, theres more of them!"
"Look at the other bunch standing around over there!"
Pointing fingers
"Look at that one, he has a beard showing" "OMG!"
" The one in the sequined gown." "That one has
a bulge between his legs (soft scream), Grosss!!!"
"OMG, I gotta tell xxxx, what we saw, quick take a pic!"
"xxxx, won't beleive us without a pic, in the MGM too!"
They take their phones out and take pics.
They then walk away laughing

Its hard to listen to that....

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This posting is from: annie
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> Have any of you ladies overheard remarks about us.

The first one I remember was during either DLV 1998 or DLV
1999, I forget which. I was eating breakfast solo at the
Riviera buffet and I overheard a conversation among some
who had seen the Frank Marino show the last night, at which
DLV was present and quite obvious.

The more interesting tidbits I remember from that one were
the remarks to the effect of "I think about half of them
were real girls" and "I wonder if the Riviera pays them to
do that?" :)

> Let's some of us make a point of doing that next year.
> We could share our experiences.

It's often very difficult to do this in a planned manner.
You almost have to do it on the fly without any advance
warning.

One exercise we used to do during the early years of DLV,
somewhat related, is to have a "subject" walk around a
place like a casino, shopping mall, on the strip, etc.,
and have a discreet observer follow and observe the
public's reaction. We would look specifically for what
mannerisms evoked a direct response, a double-take, and
things like that. Of course you need a subject who truly
wishes to blend.

What is very eye-opening is to note the difference in
reaction of 20-something guys to the image of a 40-ish
CD and that of an attractive GG twentybopper.

You sometines hear things without actively trying to
do anything. I recall just a few years ago taking the
escalator up to the buffet at the Sahara for LWG and
hearing one civilian lady (riding down) remark to
another (riding up) "Gawwwd, there's a whole bunch of
men dressed as women up there!"

A few years ago we had a group at FSE and a couple of
our people decided to do an impromptu "outreach mission"
for the normals out on the street. I observed a nudge,
pointing, chuckling, and some "WTF?" chit-chat between
two maybe 30-ish guys.

The conversation is often fleeting and the subject will
usually change quickly.

I overheard part of a conversation between two Paris
security guards this last year. Their conclusion seemed
to be that the presence of the group was NBD. However,
one of our others overheard a not-so-nice exchange
between two security guards at the San Remo a number
of years ago.

> Of course you would have to dress discreetly so as not
> to be noticed. But it would be an eye opener.

Very true. It's also something that can't be done as a
group activity at all.

One scenario I've found that gives opportunities to
overhear civilians is to sit at the bar as our people
begin to arrive and observe the reaction of the normals
as they realize what's going on. I've observed this at
places such as BB (the bar to the right as you enter),
the Charles Bar, and the bar at Trevi.

The one place where the civilians are not fazed at all
is the old Hard Rock on Harmon. I was also pleasantly
surprised by the low level of attention that our group
got at the brewpub at the Flamingo at this year's DLV.

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This posting is from: Cynthia Phillips
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I know this issue is getting old, but I just gotta' say: Kumiko scores
a perfect ten for this observation. A picture is worth a thousand
words, they say, but when you've got the right thousand words, you've
got the picture. Cynthia

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This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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I agree with Michelle, there are ways to prevent what
I had given as a example. BUT.... its for those that
want to go as Annie and Michelle calls 'stealth', or
become 'invisible' to the public. Read the DLV article
on comportment. Its about creating doubt. That is a
important point, part of the beginning of what can
be called 'stealth'.

Mostly, if not everyone, in the male to female CD or
TS society has developed their own ways of
creating their female image and personality to appear
as a female in public.

I'm not even going to try to go preach or change
over anyone's way of how they do things. There
are many other ways to obtain the same results.

I will just say I have my own too, and it has worked
for me. All I can say is it can be attainable.

When being 'invisible' becomes possible, it opens a whole
different world of living by gender of choice, and it can
be very addicting.

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This posting is from: Michelle Jenkins
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Hi

Kumiko related some of what she's heard when lurking in the crowd.
Seemed to me though that while undoubted true it reflects only one side
of what can and is heard or seen.

We need to remember that as Vegas is one of the great melting pts of the
world, still seen as some as the centre of sin for the religious
world(s). There are a lot of people who come to Las Vegas from very
conservative areas, expecting to be shocked and still surprised by the
depth of depravity they see! :-)

We of course are seen part of that depravity. So sure you going to get a
lot of "shock and awe" comments as related by Kumiko however as most of
us know there is vast percentage of those living in or visiting Las
Vegas that don't notice anything around them at all. It is what makes
Las Vegas a great place to visit, especially if you want to temporarily
reassign your gender presentation!

I would go back to a specific point I made earlier about passability.
There are a lot of GG's that don't pass and you can look at them and
think maybe that's a guy. How do you think they feel, in fact, do they
even know they're not passing as females / women? Probably not because
they're comfortable with their actual and real gender and therefore have
no alternative mode to exist in. Deep!!

So if you want to pass the trick I think is to ignore what goes on
around, the comments, the looks, the stares and "believe" you are a
women. Getting the makeup, wig / hair and clothes right helps enormously
and a little bit of body reshaping, boobs, hip pads (marvellous
invention!!!) and waist cinchers help and little taping or securing
otherwise loose anatomical items completes the ensemble.

With some practice, confidence and probably a few failures along the way
most men can become a passable women. What the Dress Guidelines would
say is if you do that around your natural age, weight and height then
the chances of being "acceptable" are greater than other wise.

Some of the best dressed most well presented CDERs at DLV have not had
ideal body size, shape, weight but their makeup, presentation and
demeanour have been thoughtfully developed and well prepared. Of course
they get "read" but less often than you might expect.

When the passability test fails (for an individual) on a regular basis
this is usually where you start getting to hear some of the Kumiko
related comments. You also can't help but get it when we, as a group,
mingle with great unwashed as happens from time to time on the limo tour
and other activities. To be perfectly honest these times are by far the
most uncomfortable for me personally, I think mainly because of the
potential lack of control if something "goes wrong"...you only need one
drunk lout to try and start something and everything could go down hill
quickly.

Indeed a situation developed in Wynn's in 2009, where group of young men
and women came into the same casino bar as a small group of us (Cders
(4-5) and two SO/GG's). They saw us and started making loud and lewd
comments. The waitress who had been taking our orders saw what was
happening had called security within a minute or so of their arrival.
Nothing eventuated and really probably wasn't going to inside the Wynn.

Anyway my thoughts for today....

Hugs

Michelle

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This posting is from: Bev W
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Like others, I can't believe this 'dress issue' is still being discussed
so much. Knowing the person who wore the ball gown in question, I am
sure that she is beside herself that she caused so many mixed feelings.

From what I have read here, it's my understanding that the controversy
is over the amount of attention her 'over-dressing' drew to our group at
BB. Hello! How about a room of one hundred transgendered gals, 75% of
which were over six feet tall and 'large boned', gathered together on an
early Friday evening. Don't you think that maybe that drew a bit of
attention from the regular patrons out for an evening dinner? I really
don't think that one person in a purple Southern Belle gown garnered
that much more attention than say a nicely dressed 6'5" 'lady'.

I have known this person for over 10 years. She was an active member in
our local TG support group. During our meetings she would often attend
wearing an extravagant gown. When asked why, she would simply reply,
'because it makes me feel wonderful and alive.' Who was I to take that
away from her by telling her that maybe it was a bit over the top for a
local meeting. When we dined out, of course she caught the eye of other
diners. But perhaps that took the focus off of the rest of us so we
could relax and enjoy our evening out.

The last thing on her mind was harming any of the rest of us or causing
undue attention or snide comments from passing spectators. I am sure
that the same was true in Las Vegas she was just enjoying the
opportunity to finally express herself in a city that could care less. I
figure that it gave the other diners at BB that evening something to
talk about besides what a lousy day they had at work. Let's look at this
experience as she provided an opportunity to spice up some otherwise
boring meal.

Bev

PS. Rosada, I am really looking forward to seeing you in your Carmen
Miranda's ruffled shirt and skirt and a basket of fruit on your head!
That in its self will be worth the price of admission.

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This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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Hi Bev,

The coordinator of the event at BB allowed the
gal in question to stay at that event, and that is all that
matters.

It wasn't affecting a large number of our group of
attendees either.

It was just a few attendees that questioned
the appropriateness of the dress, to their
understanding of the level of attire to that
event.

It was written in post-DLV in comments.

It wasn't a issue for anything else.

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