Change, it happens all the time.

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This posting is from: Bob
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Thank you very much for putting your own connotation on my words,
Kumiko. That's called turning my words around to suit YOUR misguided
truth.

I said the 250lb in spandex was INAPPROPRIATE. Of course you knew that.

The truth is...the girls of our lifestyle actually appear, most of the
time, 5-15yrs younger that their cronological age.(by the way you should
never ask a woman her age) Rule #1 in the how to treat a woman handbook.
so should they dress by actual age or how they appear to be. Don't you
look younger than you are when en femme?

Many of them didn't have a chance to experience their femininity when
they were younger and subsequently do, at times over-indulge in it. Too
much make-up, too short dresses or skirts(we have more to hide than
those darn genetic females) and sometimes they need guidance from our
more experienced people.

"Girls just want to have fun"

There were at least 8 or 10 girls in long dresses and some fancy enough
for a formal gathering. I was in a suit and tie, definately formal and
this girl was in a what I KNOW(cause I've been to them) was an
extravagant ballgown.
SO WHAT.

"Girls just want to have fun"

In a group as large as ours there are going to be people that are
uncomfortable. Let's make that a guideline that it is OK to be
uncomfortable.

My own personal opinion is that after all these years with the same
guidelines, maybe it's time for a change. Time doesn't stand still. Why
should we.

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(This posting was entered by Bob, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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ok, I need to rephrase more directly since this
isn't being understood correctly.

As Annie stated, the person wearing the gown
at Bahama Breeze is a closed issue. Everyone
enjoyed themselves. For some, they commented
and concerned about not enjoying the event as
much as others because of what one person wore
and how it was way outside the guidelines.

This was discussed and ended. The problem is
when someone affects the enjoyment of a event
because of the behavior or dress of someone else.

I personally agree that she looked good, she looked
very nice and beautiful in that gown. I have no
problems with that.

Again, that wasn't the issue of the comments. The
issue focused on was, was that gown appropriate to
wear at that event. It wasn't. Question answered.
It has nothing to do with being hypercritical. The
comments questions why it was allowed, and that
too was answered. End of issue.

But it has since turned into being critical of what that
person was wearing, basically attacking those that
made those comments, mis-understanding what they
had commented on as being hypercritical of what
someone else was wearing. Also now it has been added to
this discussion, about setting criteria for some that
they should consider NOT attending DLV, if you were
affected by what that person wore.

Yes what one wears can be fun to that person wearing
it, and those that accept it, but what of those that
have the right to think differently, and it negatively
affects them? Your responses is to tell them to stay away.

What if these others start dressing differently because of
this initial person, and what they wear now offends

others including the one that wore the gown. It will
landslide and affect more and more people.

Now addressing Bob. If you were 'people watching'
the men at Bahama Breeze, several men in the restaurant
were in a suit just like what you wore, may it be coming
from work or whatever business. You blended in
quite nicely and quite handsome in that suit, and what
for some patrons was expected. Thus no comments.

If you came in wearing a 'Prince Charming' straight
out of Snow White, or a Michael Jackson military
outfit, or a bright colored Tuxedo with cumber bun
and tails, then that would have put you in the same
'formal' catagory as the gown.

You also mis-understood what I was saying about
the 250pd individual in spandex. DLV initially had
no dress code. As I stated earlier in this email,
problems with appropriate dress has occured over the
years during DLV where there were a few that dressed
how they felt, and not their age nor what most ggs
wore at that event. Several came in actual costumes,
like a 'Bo Peep' costume. It negatively impacted
alot more attendees. The result was our current dress
code that addressed that issue.

If we were to ease it back to dress as how one
feels, as Bob suggested, it will allow outfits
like the gown in question, and ALSO
allowing that 250 individual to dress as such with
the same reasoning. We also have had some, with
underwear protruding out and exposed for all
to see at Bahama Breeze in front of families with
children. What image do you want to portray
DLV as? What image are you telling that venue?

I'm NOT disagreeing with what you said Bob, but
what you are suggesting would allow the very example
you are stating would be in-appropriate to be allowed.

That is what I was saying.

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Holly
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Wow... lots of exercise today... stretching the truth, jumping to
conclusions, and so on.

> ok, I need to rephrase more directly since this
> isn't being understood correctly.

How about taking ownership of your statements instead of constantly
trying to spin them?

> As Annie stated, the person wearing the gown
> at Bahama Breeze is a closed issue. Everyone
> enjoyed themselves. For some, they commented
> and concerned about not enjoying the event as
> much as others because of what one person wore
> and how it was way outside the guidelines.

Everyone enjoyed the event but some not as much because of what ONE
person was wearing? You can't have it both ways. And you keep saying
what she was wearing was "way outside the guidelines." Really? Do you
know what the dress notes in the LFM said about the dress for the
function? It said. "Nice casual to dressy." A gown such as she was
wearing certainly was dressy and therefore within the guidelines.

> This was discussed and ended. The problem is
> when someone affects the enjoyment of a event
> because of the behavior or dress of someone else.

If it has been discussed and ended, then why does it keep being brought
up? And with all due respect, I disagree with your statement of the
problem. The problem is not the dress of someone else. The problem is
the observer of the dress of someone else.

> I personally agree that she looked good, she looked
> very nice and beautiful in that gown. I have no
> problems with that.

And yet here we are continuing to discuss it.

> Again, that wasn't the issue of the comments. The
> issue focused on was, was that gown appropriate to
> wear at that event. It wasn't. Question answered.
> It has nothing to do with being hypercritical. The
> comments questions why it was allowed, and that
> too was answered. End of issue.

I disagree. As stated above, the dress in question was within the
guideline published for the event and therefore was appropriate.

> But it has since turned into being critical of what that
> person was wearing, basically attacking those that
> made those comments, mis-understanding what they
> had commented on as being hypercritical of what
> someone else was wearing. Also now it has been added to
> this discussion, about setting criteria for some that
> they should consider NOT attending DLV, if you were
> affected by what that person wore.

Would you be so kind to show us where there was even a suggestion that
criteria be established for people not come to DLV? Since this comment
is being directed at me, I will respond. Here is exactly what I said,
"To those who feel they have to be critical of others choices, perhaps
you need to learn how to be happier and more confident in yourselves.
If you can't, then maybe DLV is not the right fit for you." I said it
and I stand by it. If anyone can't be accepting and tolerant of others
differences, then DLV probobly is not a good place for them to be. You
are going to see people do things that maybe you would not do yourself.
Why would anyone go to someplace knowing that they are going to be
uncomfortable? Of course, that determination must be made by each
individual. But in no case does that give anyone the right to cloud up
and rain over someone else.

> Yes what one wears can be fun to that person wearing
> it, and those that accept it, but what of those that
> have the right to think differently, and it negatively
> affects them? Your responses is to tell them to stay away.

And your response is what? Have them conform to your negativity?

> What if these others start dressing differently because of
> this initial person, and what they wear now offends
> others including the one that wore the gown. It will
> landslide and affect more and more people.

Wow. Wow. Speculation run ramput. As much as Chicken Little
proclaimed that the sky was falling, it didn't happen. Nor is what you
are suggesting even plausable.

> Now addressing Bob...

I'll let Bob speak for himself. He is quite capable of speaking up for
himself.

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(This posting was entered by Holly, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Kumiko Watanabe
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[ Moderator's note: Please keep things civil and on-topic. Please
take personal issues off line. Thanks ]
. . . . . . . . . .

How about taking ownership of your statements instead of constantly
trying to spin them?

I am. You are addressing me.

Everyone enjoyed the event but some not as much because of what ONE
person was wearing? You can't have it both ways.

Annie stated the overall survey showed your event was enjoyed.

The survey also has comments that questioned about how appropriate one
person was dressed.

It's nothing to do with both ways. It's how it was reported by the
results of the survey.

And you keep saying what she was wearing was "way outside the
guidelines." Really? Do you know what the dress notes in the LFM said
about the dress for the function? It said. "Nice casual to dressy." A
gown such as she was wearing certainly was dressy and therefore within
the guidelines.

Ok Holly if you say a formal gown fits in the same catagory as nice
casual to dressy it's ok with me. Then why do others call it formal, and
a costume and not dressy.

If it has been discussed and ended, then why does it keep being brought
up?

It's because there are disagreements,

And with all due respect, I disagree with your statement of the
problem. The problem is not the dress of someone else. The problem is
the observer of the dress of someone else.

Yes I agree. I should have wrote it better, Thank you for the
correction.

And yet here we are continuing to discuss it.

Well there is alot of disagreement with what the survey comments said.

I disagree. As stated above, the dress in question was within the
guideline published for the event and therefore was appropriate.

As the coodinator you decided it was OK. I have no arguement with you
or your decision.

This discussion is with Bob who started this again by attacking those
that made the comments which I disagree with what he was saying about
those that wrote the comments and what they wrote.

That is all

"To those who feel they have to be critical of others choices, perhaps
you need to learn how to be happier and more confident in yourselves.

It wasn't critical. That is what I am trying to say. A few questioned
the appropriateness of the outfit to THEIR understanding of the
guidelines on how to dress. You decided it was ok so it was ok.

Those making the comments didn't know that until coments were brought
up. They were uncomfortable not knowing.

If you can't, then maybe DLV is not the right fit for you."

Right here is the suggestion not
to attend because of what they wrote.

I said it and I stand by it. If anyone can't be accepting and tolerant
of others differences, then DLV probobly is not a good place for them to
be.

You agree and state it's not a good place to be. It wasn't accepting
or tolerant. It was a question if it was appropriate to wear that gown
and that's it. Because they didn't know, it was more of a uncomfortable
feeling than a issue of tolerace or difference. That may be why no one
said anything at the event so it also showed they tolerated the
difference but questioned it in a comment.

You are going to see people do things that maybe you would not do
yourself.

I agree

Why would anyone go to someplace knowing that they are going to be
uncomfortable?

The thing is those that went didn't expect it, or expected everyone to
dress closer to what was generally expected and not to see any extemes
in dress.

Of course, that determination must be made by each
individual. But in no case does that give anyone the right to cloud up
and rain over someone else.

Yes I agree. You defend the person in the gown, what of those that
were negatively affected by what she wore. Can you see it could have
Clouded up and rained on them by Them feeling it was uncomfortable and
not relaxing fully? It sounds like they have no right and that single
Individual does.

It's like a smoker who has the right to smoke but do the people around
this person have to tolerate it? Why should they be wrong and have to
leave or move. Don't they have a right to breath without inhaling the
other persons smoke?

Yes what one wears can be fun to that person wearing it, and those that
accept it, but what of those that have the right to think differently,
and it negatively affects them? Your responses is to tell them to stay
away.

And your response is what? Have them conform to your negativity?

It's not negativity from me. Their thinking is different from you or
me. They think on their own. You are suggesting not to attend DLV not
me.

I would have told them to see the Coodinator and express their feelings.
NOT tell them to stay away and not attend DLV

What if these others start dressing differently because of this initial
person, and what they wear now offends others including the one that
wore the gown. It will landslide and affect more and more people.

Wow. Wow. Speculation run ramput. As much as Chicken Little proclaimed
that the sky was falling, it didn't happen. Nor is what you are
suggesting even plausable.

Yes speculation. But the door has been opened to do this. I hope that
doesn't happen either.

Now addressing Bob...

I'll let Bob speak for himself. He is quite capable of speaking up for
himself.

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(This posting was entered by Kumiko Watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rosada Delano
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I believe, and I may be wrong, but not since Monica Lewinski's infamous
blue dress has another dress come along to generate so much commentary
or notoriety. I hope this controversy gets resolved soon. It is starting
to become stale.

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(This posting was entered by Rosada Delano, an external user of MyDLV.)