Dress issues and such ... (was Re: Comments on the comments,

[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>Was the offender a new gal or a previous attendee?

Newcomer, first time this year.

>But if it was a new attendee, well then perhaps pulling
>her aside away from the others and discretely informing
>her that she is not dressed to code specifications.

This can be done either formally, using the procedures
that are in place, or informally, peer-to-peer.

>If this problem becomes an real hot button issue for the next
>DLV, why can't we solve it by establishing a small group of
>ladies who can handle the offending lady and gently tell her
>she needs to go back to her hotel and change.

>How hard is that?

I don't think we need any new rules, new formalities, or
an "enforcement committee" or anything like that.

I also don't think it's in the best interest of DLV as a
whole to escalate this issue until it warrants the term
"hot button" and such.

What I do think we need is a review and a good understanding,
from the rank and file up to the senior volunteer level, of
such things as what the rules are, to whom they apply and in
what cases they are binding, under what conditions does a
violation actually occur, and a good review of the
responsibilities, including that of the rank and file,
regarding what is to be done if one's behavior or dress
negatively affects another's enjoyment of the event.

We have procedures in place to deal with situations such
as what occurred at the Bahama Breeze, but as far as we
know, these procedures were not followed.

We can only speculate why not, but my guess would be that
those whose enjoyment was negatively affected either did
not know what to do, or knew and for some reason chose not
to make their feelings known at the time something could be
done about their concerns.

The various rules, regulations, policies, and procedures
which cover this are easy to find if you look for them,
but I daresay that very few have actually read them.

Seek and you shall find. :)

(Anybody need a hint as to where to look?) :)

>I think if it is done tactfully... no one should get the
>feathers ruffled. And if they do, well as the saying goes..
>"Oh, well!"

Formal "consultations", throughout our history, have been
awkward at best, and in some cases have turned into an
absolute train wreck! :(

Informal peer-to-peer advice appears to work better, as
indicated on the last several years' surveys. However,
there are a number of reports where such initiatives
were not taken in a positive manner.
. . . . .

Now, from a personal standpoint, I was at the BB and I
saw the outfit in question. My initial thought was that
it was not the best choice of what to wear to such an
activity, but it was in no way impacting my enjoyment
of the activity. The scores for the activity on this
year's survey (4.76 for enjoyment and 4.75 for comfort
with 66 responses) show that there was nothing of
significance reducing the overall enjoyment or comfort
level that night.

It was a case of overdressing, and IMAO, this case was
not nearly as offensive to the eye as were the cases in
our history where 60yo individuals have tried to come
off as the 20yo hottie! Nor do I think this a case of
someone saying "f*ck you" to our guidelines. It was
just a questionable choice of what to wear to such an
activity.

If this was our most severe dress issue this year, I
think we're doing very well, dress wise. :)

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rosada Delano
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Annie.... I totally agree with you about this case being very
minor compared to the other one you mentioned. That one really
took the cake for bad taste.

But perhaps DLV might want to specify in the Dress Code for
next year that no costumes or costume-like attire from the
Carol Burnett's "Gone With the Wind" skit allowed in the
future, unless the activity calls for such attire, like lunch
at a Southern plantation or sipping mint juleps on the veranda,
even though that puts a damper on my costume of choice for the
Mexican dinner I want to host next year. I was thinking of
something along the line of Carmen Miranda's ruffled shirt
and skirt and a basket of fruit on my head!

Oh well, maybe for Halloween!

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>But perhaps DLV might want to specify in the Dress Code for
>next year that no costumes or costume-like attire from the

We already do that. It's covered in the "In A Nutshell"
summary of BDR guidelines, on which the current "Miranda"
document is based:

+Outfits must be occasion-appropriate, meaning within the
+bounds of what is usual and customary for a woman (or man)

[several bullet points omitted]

+* Unless otherwise noted, costumes, clubwear, and slutty/fetish
+ attire are not allowed at mainstream activities.

Of course it's up to the coordinator(s) of the activity in
question to make the judgement call as to what is and is not
appropriate at their activity, and it's up to the rank and
file attendees to get said coordinators in the loop if their
enjoyment or comfort at the activity is negatively impacted.

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Holly
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> Annie.... I totally agree with you about this case being very
> minor compared to the other one you mentioned...

Put me on the list of those who think this incident is being blown all
out of proportion. I find it more than ironic that some are being
hyper-critical of what other are wearing. Is that not the same
judgmental attitude we find ourselves facing from society as a whole?

Why, then, are we turning on ourselves?

The woman in question at BB chose to wear something that made her feel
good about herself. It fit her correctly and was in good repair. Is it
something I would have worn to that venue myself? No, but so what? I
saw a lot of things there that evening that I would not choose to wear.

If you felt what she was wearing was disrespectful to the group, then
why in the name of all that is good did you not take her aside at the
time and voice your concerns privately? By waiting and doing so now in
this very public way is nothing short of cruelty, in my opinion.

To those who feel they have to be critical of others choices, perhaps
you need to learn how to be happier and more confident in yourselves.
If you can't, then maybe DLV is not the right fit for you.

Holly

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Nicole Gallucci
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>To those who feel they have to be critical of others choices, perhaps
>you need to learn how to be happier and more confident in yourselves.
>If you can't, then maybe DLV is not the right fit for you.

Holly I couldn't agree with this statement more. You ROCK GIRL!!!

I saw someone posted that it brought to much attention to them.... Are
kidding me. Part of being a woman in public is the attention it brings.
Guys check you out if you have looks... Girls check you out if you have
style.

I've set back and watched this topic in pretty much disbelief. I shared
the limo ride with this woman and I didn't have any problems with what
she was wearing. I don't remember seeing her at BB. I think her name
was... Joan maybe?.... Anyway, if she has been following any of this she
may decide to never come back. That would be a shame.

I have faith in the organizers and hostesses. They get to evaluate each
situation as it comes up and I think they do an awesome job. I haven't
seen a 260# woman in a latex/spandex mini dress yet. LOL! So please stop
and enjoy yourself in Vegas!!! Maybe have a few shots or something.

Love you all

NikkiShae

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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Can we clear up what issue or issues are being
discussed, for I see at least three, and there
could be more, and maybe we should try to
separate them to clarify and narrow the focus of
discussion on each issue.

1. Being hyper-critical of what other are wearing

2. When one's behavior or dress negatively affects
another's or other people's enjoyment of a event.

3. Review and revision of the whole dress code

On another issue:

>If you can't, then maybe DLV is not the right fit for you.

It looks like right now all three mixed up like a
serving of spaghetti and we are again in another
discussion where we are starting to point fingers
at each other with the above pointed comment:

"Maybe DLV is not the right fit for you."

directed at nameless individuals, which may
fuel more heated exchanges of rhetoric, and it
doesn't accomplish, solve, or resolve anything.

Now with this comment, it becomes a judgment
by someone to someone else telling them not to
attend DLV. This expands a issue of dress to
who is qualified to be the right kind of person to
attend DLV.

This comment in itself directly can and will turn away
more people from DLV too.

Thank you.

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Susan
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I was the organizer of the BB event. Nobody complained to me about the
dress. In fact I talked with her and told her that she looked beautiful.

She was just having fun with it. What's the big deal? Part of the fun of
being a women is enjoying what you wear. Duh! We'll never all agree on
what is appropriate.

If what someone else wears effects you're enjoyment of an event, get
over it. If someone did come to me to complain, I probably would have
offered to sit with you and her to discuss your concerns. But I would
have been neutral. Perhaps some friendly advice would effect her future
choice. But I never would have sent her home. It's not like she was
wearing a 12 inch mini with 6 inch heels.

The guidelines are not sacred scrolls. They are GUIDELINES. Even the
U.S. Constitution can be amended. What's to keep people from making
petty complaints about anyone out of jealousy, cattyness or just a
different sense of fashion. Organizers want to enjoy their event, not
have to sit at the complaint booth and act as fashion police.

We either have to get over this or we'll be spending a lot of time
discussing and perhaps overhauling the guidelines. DLV was 3 months ago
and we're still talking about what she wore. Lucky girl.

I'm sure that Bob wasn't approving the 250 pound belly fat hanging over
the mini skirt look. But in the real world you do see woman dressed in a
way that some would consider inappropriate. Sit at an outgoor bar on the
Strip and watch what the tourists wear. Its amazing how slutty some of
them dress and not just the 20 somethings. Things are different in
Vegas.

I'm sure that very few of you would even consider approaching a woman at
a straight function to complain about what she is wearing. Why be so
hard on each other? As I believe Holly said, everyone else is hard
enough on us. Lighten up ladies.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Mindy
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>" Put me on the list of those who think this incident is being blown all
> out of proportion. I find it more than ironic that some are being
> hyper-critical of what other are wearing. Is that not the same
> judgmental attitude we find ourselves facing from society as a whole?

> Why, then, are we turning on ourselves?"

Ditto

Mindy

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Nicole Gallucci
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>"Maybe DLV is not the right fit for you."
>directed at nameless individuals, which may
>fuel more heated exchanges of rhetoric, and it
>doesn't accomplish, solve, or resolve anything.

>Now with this comment, it becomes a judgment
>by someone to someone else telling them not to
>attend DLV. This expands a issue of dress to
>who is qualified to be the right kind of person to
>attend DLV.

No one person or group can package someting up with a bow and
make everyone happy. Sad but true, it isn't a perfect world.
We all know this all to well. We all come from different
social and economic backgrounds with various degrees of
opinion. When a topic gets badgered to the point of being
deconstructive, someone must draw a line in the sand for
the greater good. Sometimes this can seem harsh.

I don't believe this is a case of judgement by one person on
whether someone belongs or not. I think it does point to the
individual to judge if something is a fit or not.

NikkiShae

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(This posting was entered by Nicole Gallucci, an external user of MyDLV.)