BDR and LV venues we use.

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This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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Seems the BDR is coming up again in disc.

Consider this general scenario, that combines
most of the common problems we are having during
DLV. Its just one example.

DLV event: mainstream dinner at a public family restaurant,
Current number of attendees, 50. Its the welcome
celebration.

One person arrives, wearing a mini skirt so short
her panties are showing, and has already bent over to
pick something up off the floor without bending her knees
exposing her bottom for all to see. Her top so sheer the
bra and nipples are showing through the material, and
the bra is so small the edges of the fake boobs are also
showing. The mini skirt she is wearing shows a distinct
budge in her crotch area. She also hasn't shaved well
and has a distinct shadow on the face. To herself she is
dressed appropriate to the occasion. She is also a beginner
cross dresser and hasn't applied the make-up very well,
and hasn't signed up for a Big Sister.

She becomes an embarrassment to all attendees at the DLV event.
All the attendees talk among themselves about it, but no one
does anything.

Management is getting comments from other public patrons
of that restaurant about her. Some complaints are when she
entered the women's restroom and traumatized the women
using the restroom at the time.

When asked to the DLV organizer, the organizer confirms she is
part of the DLV group, so management associates her and her
dress with all other DLV attendees. It now draws attention
to other attendees and the group in general.

Management is now deciding to kick the whole DLV group out the
door because of the single persons embarrassing behavior is
beginning to affect their other regular patrons by their complaints or
they turning around and leaving with their kids when they see this
attendee walking around.

What do you do Joan?

According to comments:

>"what enforcement there is, is more severe than it is in actuality."

Your response:

>It's a plausible belief to hold. I believe it.

>"tired of the testosterone tempers I see because you don"t like the length
>of a skirt."

Your response:

>I agree here. I'm not sure if I'll be back because of this.

>"there's far more "enforcement" going on than there is."

Your response

>I think so.
>Very true, and establishments have means to deal with these affairs.

So Joan, what is your response?

It sounds like from our DLV side, you would like that we do nothing
and leave it to management.

If left to management, the DLV group would be evicted. Problem
is solved for management, since the DLV group using their services
hasn't done anything to stop this embarassment.

DLV and any future tg event at that venue is now in jeopardy because
of one person and our lack of action. The DLV attendees will
now be publicly and personally humiliated as they are forced out of
the restaurant, possibly by police.

-----

Since you seem to disagree with what the BDR guidlines are or how
they would be used for enforcement to respond, I would like to know
what you would do, and it better be different from the BDR response.

The BDR response is:

With a few senior organizers, confront person, explain to this person
how her dress is causing a very real problem. Ask the person to leave
to change and come back in a dress/attire more appropriate to the
occasion and venue, giving good examples of what to wear. She is
welcome to return, if appropriately dressed for that event.

The DLV organizer reports to management that they have taken action and
has dealt with the problem and the person in question has left the
venue. The organizer apologizes to management for the problem that was
created, and to let the organizer know if anyone else appears to be a
problem, or to resolve any other issues that may arise while DLV is
having the event. On the restroom issue, the organizer then tries to
work something out so that the attendees can use a restroom that
satisfies what management wants.

This show that we as a DLV organization, is also concerned and sensitive
to the venue, willing to work out a agreement. It allows communication
and understanding with the venue. It protects the locals that use that
venue too, and those DLV people attending the event at that venue.

Joan, what is wrong with that, and how severe is that to the situation?

------

>> +It seems there is little or no tolerance for the clueless and
>> +the newbe who can see thier true self in the mirror. We need
>> +to guide with a gentle hand not a club.

> Very true. I'm not so sure we're doing that.

Joan, its called the Big Sister Program that Nora has been doing for
several years now.

>> Very true. I think there's some misunderstanding of the intent
>> of the guidelines. They're not intending to stress anyone out.

> It seems like they stress some out. They do me.

-----

Why does it stress you out?

The guidelines are clear, with examples.

Is it because you are not willing to following the BDR?

-----

>> +For beginners and first timers, have their dress reviewed
>> +by Glamour Boutique, Studio Lites, Harmony Spa to see if they
>> +are ready for mainstream activities as far as appearance.

You respond:

>How low can one go.

-----

What do you mean by "LOW"?

I have seen results of people that have gone to all three places, and
I'm very impressed with the final results. The before and after is very
dramatic and very amazing. This includes you Joan. I've seen Paula's
work on you, its really good.

The attendees are transformed to being very passable and very femme.
I don't even recognize some of them. These venues do fantastic
work! The only thing that gives the transformed attendee away is
their voice and behavior.

Those that have been transformed have been surprised how they can
actually look, and are very very happy with the results too!

I see nothing wrong with those that have gone based on the results.

I don't understand how going to them can be so "low". The owners
of the three venues take pride in their work and bend backwards to
help each client they have to be as passable as possible at the best as
they can do for them.

They even have a "Open House" during DLV to invite attendees to
use their services!

When you say "LOW", it sounds like you saying going to these "local"
venues are bad and shouldn't be recommended to someone that may
just need a make over?

Are you saying we should NOT be using these venues?

That we shouldn't go to them for essential services to look femme
by your term its a "low" thing to do?

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Joan Dupree
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> Seems the BDR is coming up again in disc.

It's not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I'd like to
think it's a living document. I think all people in DLV should have some
say here. DLV shouldn't be an autocracy led only by a few.

> One person arrives, wearing a mini skirt so short
> her panties are showing, and has already bent over to
> pick something up off the floor without bending her knees
> exposing her bottom for all to see. Her top so sheer the

I've not seen anyone like that. I don't think anyone like that would
want to be at DLV. It's self limiting.

I have to say when I was a beginner, I dressed the exact opposite of
that. I tend to wear clothes that are not very revealing. I also never
liked beard shadow either. So much so I decided to get electrolysis.

> She becomes an embarrassment to all attendees at the DLV event.
> All the attendees talk among themselves about it, but no one
> does anything.

We must walk with great care.

> Management is getting comments from other public patrons
> of that restaurant about her. Some complaints are when she
> entered the women's restroom and traumatized the women
> using the restroom at the time.

I'm sure the management would deal with the particular person involved.
Why wouldn't they?

> When asked to the DLV organizer, the organizer confirms she is
> part of the DLV group, so management associates her and her
> dress with all other DLV attendees. It now draws attention
> to other attendees and the group in general.
Possible, but speculative. I think we're exaggerating here.

> What do you do Joan?

I don't know. If I ever have to deal with it, then I'll have an answer
for you. Why do we have to be so hypothetical here?

>>"tired of the testosterone tempers I see because you don"t like the length
>>of a skirt."

I am not particularly into short skirts, but I accept those who are.

>>I agree here. I'm not sure if I'll be back because of this.

I want DLV to be a place where people don't have to fear "the powers
that be".

I prefer being around people who are not prone to anger.

> It sounds like from our DLV side, you would like that we do nothing
> and leave it to management.

Some times I think that may be the best course of action. They have more
experience dealing with such matters than I do. I say that with
humility.

> If left to management, the DLV group would be evicted. Problem
> is solved for management, since the DLV group using their services
> hasn't done anything to stop this embarassment.

Management has that right, but I doubt a wholesale eviction would take
place. Has this ever happened at DLV?

> DLV and any future tg event at that venue is now in jeopardy because
> of one person and our lack of action. The DLV attendees will
> now be publicly and personally humiliated as they are forced out of
> the restaurant, possibly by police.

Maybe, but unlikely. And you have to do something really bad to get the
police involved. Like committing a crime.

I've gone back to venues on my own where we had incidents in the past.
I've had no problems whatsoever. I really don't think any venue worth
their salt would enact a wholesale ban on transgenders.

> Since you seem to disagree with what the BDR guidlines are or how
> they would be used for enforcement to respond, I would like to know
> what you would do, and it better be different from the BDR response.

I think we must be more positive. You get more from a horse with a
carrot than a stick.

> The BDR response is:

> With a few senior organizers, confront person, explain to this person
> how her dress is causing a very real problem. Ask the person to leave
> to change and come back in a dress/attire more appropriate to the
> occasion and venue, giving good examples of what to wear. She is
> welcome to return, if appropriately dressed for that event.

We need another level of appeal. is there a check and balance to prevent
adverse decision based on personal dislikes? I'm concerned about
favoritism.

> This show that we as a DLV organization, is also concerned and sensitive
> to the venue, willing to work out a agreement. It allows communication
> and understanding with the venue. It protects the locals that use that
> venue too, and those DLV people attending the event at that venue.

> Joan, what is wrong with that, and how severe is that to the situation?

I've never had an event I put on get to that point. Why are we so afraid
of such things happening. They don't happen on my watch. Please clarify.

>>> +It seems there is little or no tolerance for the clueless and
>>> +the newbe who can see thier true self in the mirror. We need
>>> +to guide with a gentle hand not a club.

>> Very true. I'm not so sure we're doing that.

> Joan, its called the Big Sister Program that Nora has been doing for
> several years now.

>>> Very true. I think there's some misunderstanding of the intent
>>> of the guidelines. They're not intending to stress anyone out.

>> It seems like they stress some out. They do me.

> Why does it stress you out?

I try to do things with a freer hand. I respect people for who they are.

> The guidelines are clear, with examples.

> Is it because you are not willing to following the BDR?

I think the BDR should be applied in an evenhanded manner.

>>> +For beginners and first timers, have their dress reviewed
>>> +by Glamour Boutique, Studio Lites, Harmony Spa to see if they
>>> +are ready for mainstream activities as far as appearance.

> You respond:

>>How low can one go.

> What do you mean by "LOW"?

I really don't think people need to pass a test here. I think the idea
of making someone pass a test to attend a mainstream event is
belittling, and so to me, it's low.

> I have seen results of people that have gone to all three places, and
> I'm very impressed with the final results. The before and after is very
> dramatic and very amazing. This includes you Joan. I've seen Paula's
> work on you, its really good.


I support all of our vendors 100%, and try to encourage our attendees to
do business with them. But I don't twist arms.

> They even have a "Open House" during DLV to invite attendees to
> use their services!

Yes, and I support all of the open houses with my attendance. I
encourage maximum participation. I even choose to use A Harmony Nail Spa
as a staging point for my events which involve carpooling.

> When you say "LOW", it sounds like you saying going to these "local"
> venues are bad and shouldn't be recommended to someone that may
> just need a make over?
>
> Are you saying we should NOT be using these venues?

We should, I recommend them highly, not just for Diva, but to many
locals I come across in my activities of the day.

> That we shouldn't go to them for essential services to look femme
> by your term its a "low" thing to do?

It's a low thing to mandate it. Let the free hand of the market work here.

"The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

With much patience and care. J, here in warm LV as the sun goes down.

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(This posting was entered by Joan Dupree, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Aiko
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>> Seems the BDR is coming up again in disc.

> It's not the first time, and I'm sure it won't be
> the last. I'd like to
> think it's a living document. I think all people in
> DLV should have some
> say here. DLV shouldn't be an autocracy led only by
> a few.

This topic of discussion actually belongs within the
Org group. However, since it is currently on this
forum, I'll try to enlighten you, Joan, and bring this
topic to a conclusion on this forum.

Speaking very freely, each of the past three or four
DLVs, we've had a few individuals dress
inappropriately for the venue and/or use restrooms
incorrectly. All of which is against the spirit of
the Behavior, Dress, Restroom (BDR) guidelines.

After these previous DLVs, it appears that those
individuals who were the "perps" always seem to be
upset about not being able to "express themselves".

And each year, you (Joan) have tried to put a spin on
why they should be accepted and allowed to express
themselves in any way they want.

To put it plainly, BDR is enforced because of the
embarrassment the perps cause the whole group, and the
potential problem that an incident may have for the
local T* group. This includes age appropriate dress,
size appropriate dress, and modesty.

The BDR guidelines also states complete male or female
mode only - NOT ANDROGYNOUS.

From the majority of the Orgainzers, it appears that
the BDR guidelines are NOT negotiable at this time.

If you don't agree with the guidelines, bring the
topic up in an Org group discussion.

If you decide to do that, you might probably meet with
a lot of resistance to lessen the BDR standards. Over
95% of the attendees and Organizers feel the
guidelines are meaningful and useful for the safety
and comfort of the entire group.

Also, when a confrontation was to be made this past
DLV, a group of Organizers (4-5) were present. This
is not the whim of one, but a consensus of the senior
Organizers present.

Now, when you persisted on this same topic last year,
you were presented with an alternative that you never
answered.

I'll present this alternative to you once again:
For the person(s) who need to "express
himself/herself" by violating the BDR guidelines,
let's have you (Joan) take care of the problem. If
those same people show up again in violation of BDR,
then they will be confronted not by you, but by the
Organizers present. Not only will the violators be
told to leave/change, but you (Joan) will also suffer
the same sanctions the "perp" gets.

No spin here - you need to answer quite simply ...

Yes, I'll take that responsibility.

or

No, I'll be quiet and support the BDR guidelines that
the Organizers have put in place.

Either a yes or no. Anything else will be taken as a "Yes".

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(This posting was entered by Aiko, an external user of MyDLV.)

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This posting is from: Joan Dupree
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> Here Here! I totally agree with Aiko. And About Time Too.

We need to take this thread offline.

All the best, J. here in Las Vegas, with a view of the Strip from her window.

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(This posting was entered by Joan Dupree, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Katie
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Here Here! I totally agree with Aiko. And About Time Too.

It's bad enough that the "In your facers" show up and defy the groups
protocol guidelines and become a topic of conversation for the next 6
months, but supporting them after the fact only adds to their power. Let
them sink on their own Joan.

Kate.

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(This posting was entered by Katie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rosada
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Before you decide to take this thread off line, I want to say
I also am in agreement with Aiko!

Rosada

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(This posting was entered by Rosada, an external user of MyDLV.)