DLV 2008 survey report, part 3, comments continued ...

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Diva Las Vegas
----------

These are the survey comments which pertain to behavior,
dress, and restrooms.

In no particular order.

Minimal editing, only for clarity.
. . . . . . . . . .

You need to inspire the girls to use the unisex lavatory. More than once
I saw girls walk right past a unisex and into the ladies.
. . . . .

I have not had a public restroom isssue. I avoid them if all possible
and I behave myself. No lipstick jungle behavior and I sit down. I am
amazed that there are some that still stand up in restrooms.
. . . . .

I think that many of our people scoff at the behavior, dress, and
restroom guidelines up to the point that they, or someone close to them,
gets the snotty end of the stick from security!

I really think that many DLVers don't realize the importance of things
like sitting, not standing, not going in groups, not being obvious about
it, and if not dressed appropriately don't use a public ladies room!
. . . . .

I was approached by security while leaving the Ladies restroom in the
Wynn. They asked some questions, which i answered in monosyibles as I
walked to the front door. They were courteous and left me to talk to
some other girls when we go outside!
. . . . .

I didn't have any personal bathroom problems, but it might be helpful to
have a beginning "bathroom 101" class. This was my first time using
public bathrooms and the firts couple times I was scared, I admit it.
. . . . .

A good list of safe and unisex would be helpful.
. . . . .

This one "LADY" told us flat-out that "SHE" had no intent to sit to
urinate. SHAME! Don't you consider your sisters at all?
. . . . .

I found the advise that "what goes in must come out" to be helpful and
it was correct and I found little need to use public restrooms of any
type.
. . . . .

If you don't want to follow the rules, just stay home and leave us
alone.
. . . . .

I think the panic about using restroom was ill advised and unnecessary.
Normaly when dressed I am comforatble using a women's room. If I am
uncertain I ask someone in authority where I should go. I did this a
couple of times at DLV(I am normaly pretty passible)the persons I asked
seemed surprised to be asked and readily offered women's rooms without
exception or concern.

I did speak with an attendee who told me she would stand to pee
regardless of whether she was in a women's or men's room. I advised her
this was disrepective and provocative and she said she didn't care. The
point is that a few ignorant, people will continue to create prioblems
and reflect poorly on all of us as long as they continue their
provactive and stupid behavior, regardless of any rules and guidance you
will request of particpants.
. . . . .

I do not use bathrooms because of the comfort level
. . . . .

Had several comments and looks made to me by others waiting to use the
restroom at the Bahama Breeze.
. . . . .

Since all the talk about bathrooms, how about a "how-to guide" or "best
practice" document.
. . . . .

I'm still uneasy using the ladie's rest room.
. . . . .

You need to "divorce" Diva from Wildside and let everyone know that they
are not part of Diva.
. . . . .

Quit worrying how anyone dresses, it is frickin Vegas. No I have never
been harshed by any of you for this but think it is too much. We are
there to have fun. I have spent many years attending now and am tired of
the testosterone tempers I see because you don"t like the length of a
skirt. IT RUINS THE EXPERIENCE GIRLS...PLEASE STOP! I respect anyone who
shows no matter how they look or dress.
. . . . .

I think the dress code and enforcement need to be relaxed a little. It
seems there is little or no tolerance for the clueless and the newbe who
can see thier true self in the mirror. We need to guide with a gentle
hand not a club.
. . . . .

For beginners and first timers, have their dress reviewed by Glamour
Boutique, Studio Lites, Harmony Spa to see if they are ready for
mainstream activities as far as appearance. If not, these venues can
help improve the image and possibly behavior, or provide the basics for
those starting new. Those that pass the review can attend mainstream
events. The attendee has to be honest with themselves as far as ability
to attend mainstream events, and how they look. It will prevent the
embarrassment of a 'enforcer' talking to them.
. . . . .

The Androginous and Goth Clothing questions seem somewhat open to me.
Some of those attending DLV are experiencing their first or rare
opportunities to be out in public. Anyone dressing in a manner that
could bring undo attention to a group should refrain from that activity
or dress in a mode appropriate for the occasion and the fact that there
are people that do not care for the extra attention. DLV provides venues
for all manner of dress from lifestyle attire, to the outlandish, the
sexy and normal day wear. It's just simple courtesy to adjust one's
clothing to accommodate the best style of dress for the occassion and
people participating.
. . . . .

The onoy issue I have was with the improper behavior of some of the
attendees - There is no place at Diva for participants to make out, Feel
each others boobs and engage in simulated sex acts in a mainstream
venue.
. . . . .

Annie, Aiko, you run a clean ship and can be proud of that. Keep it
clean, and on course please. Don't let those bastards get you down.
. . . . .

* I was put off by several attendees asking if I was "just" a
cross-dresser or if I intended to transition. This kind of
condescending attitude has no place in a group that should be about
acceptance of any socially respectful alternative gender presentation.

We should be one community when we meet, not confronting each other
about dress and actions. If you girls can't come to Vegas to be happy
and have fun I wish you would stay home, this should not be a stress
event.
. . . . .

Lighten up on us. I used the womans room and never had an issue. I
would have been very uncomfortable in the mens room. Not everyone
dressed the same either and to try and exclude people because of that is
way wrong.
. . . . .

I had some distasteful comments on things about my room mate and I. This
happen on at lease 3 occasions and in front of other attendees.
. . . . .

good mix of types of events so that people can dress in a variety of
different ways, can choose level of what she can afford to spend, and
generally a good selection of options
. . . . .

This was a great week. No bad incidents effected me. Dress by all was
very appropriate. Even Annie dressed up a few times. What more can I
say, this is a great event, thanks again for doing it.
. . . . .

SHAME on those who would go and represent us badly at the Bellagio of
all places. Don't you care for anyone but yourself? Dressing like a "HO"
casts us all in a bad light! Think of your sisters next time! SHAME!
SHAME! SHAME!
. . . . .

----------
(This posting was entered by Diva Las Vegas, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Joan Dupree
----------

> You need to inspire the girls to use the unisex lavatory. More than once
> I saw girls walk right past a unisex and into the ladies.

I do that myself, not a problem.

> I have not had a public restroom isssue. I avoid them if all possible

Why avoid them, when you gotta go, go. I do.

> and I behave myself. No lipstick jungle behavior and I sit down. I am
> amazed that there are some that still stand up in restrooms.

I'm amazed some stand up in a ladies room. Something I guess I'll never
understand.

> A good list of safe and unisex would be helpful.

http://www.safe2pee.org/beta/

> This one "LADY" told us flat-out that "SHE" had no intent to sit to
> urinate. SHAME! Don't you consider your sisters at all?

Makes me wonder.

> I think the panic about using restroom was ill advised and unnecessary.
> Normaly when dressed I am comforatble using a women's room. If I am
> uncertain I ask someone in authority where I should go. I did this a
> couple of times at DLV(I am normaly pretty passible)the persons I asked
> seemed surprised to be asked and readily offered women's rooms without
> exception or concern.

It's really not that hard.

> I did speak with an attendee who told me she would stand to pee
> regardless of whether she was in a women's or men's room. I advised her
> this was disrepective and provocative and she said she didn't care. The
> point is that a few ignorant, people will continue to create prioblems
> and reflect poorly on all of us as long as they continue their
> provactive and stupid behavior, regardless of any rules and guidance you
> will request of particpants.

What you sow, you reap.

> I do not use bathrooms because of the comfort level

I'm sorry about that. I would think holding it in wold be more
uncomfortable.

> I'm still uneasy using the ladie's rest room.

It takes practice, like riding a bike.

> Quit worrying how anyone dresses, it is frickin Vegas. No I have never
> been harshed by any of you for this but think it is too much. We are
> there to have fun. I have spent many years attending now and am tired of
> the testosterone tempers I see because you don"t like the length of a
> skirt. IT RUINS THE EXPERIENCE GIRLS...PLEASE STOP! I respect anyone who
> shows no matter how they look or dress.

Let's stop worrying and have a good time. by the way, just had my
estrogen shot.

> I think the dress code and enforcement need to be relaxed a little. It
> seems there is little or no tolerance for the clueless and the newbe who
> can see thier true self in the mirror. We need to guide with a gentle
> hand not a club.

Agreed!

> For beginners and first timers, have their dress reviewed by Glamour
> Boutique, Studio Lites, Harmony Spa to see if they are ready for
> mainstream activities as far as appearance.

Sounds too cumbersome, we're not kids here.

> The Androginous and Goth Clothing questions seem somewhat open to me.
> Some of those attending DLV are experiencing their first or rare
> opportunities to be out in public.

Some point here. But androgynous people generally blend in. Can't see
how that could be a problem.

> We should be one community when we meet, not confronting each other
> about dress and actions. If you girls can't come to Vegas to be happy
> and have fun I wish you would stay home, this should not be a stress
> event.

I'm with you on that!

> Lighten up on us. I used the womans room and never had an issue.

I use the women's room too, and never had an issue.

Cheers, J. living the good life in LV.

----------
(This posting was entered by Joan Dupree, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
----------

This response is to the behavior, dress, and restroom comments.

Before I begin -- we had 173 total attendees this year.

99% of those people demonstrated that they knew how to behave
properly. 99% showed that they knew how to dress properly,
or at least made a conscientious effort to do so. Likewise, we
had 99% or so demonstrate that they knew how to use restrooms
properly.

I really wish that these 99% of the people would garner 99% of
the attention, for doing things right, but that's not the way
things work in the real world.
. . . . .

Let's get restrooms out of the way first.

On the positive side, I heard no reports of groups going to the
ladies room this year. Thanks to all for cooperating on this!

I also had several attendees ask where unisex restrooms and
out of the way restrooms were. The vast majority of our people
do wish to use restrooms properly and do consider others when
using them.

We need to acknowledge this and thank them for their efforts
and consideration.

>From what I heard, there were three incidents or issues this year.

I'm not going to list them or discuss them. They've been hashed
and rehashed ad nauseam. If you haven't heard the details and
have a need to know, just ask around, you will get the details.

One comment I heard during DLV was to the effect that she was
amazed that "for 100" (actually more like 173) attendees, we have
as few restroom incidents as we do.

I think the reason for this is that the overwhelming majority of
our attendees use restrooms properly. We do need to acknowledge
this and thank those who use them discreetly for doing so!

Two very important "best practices" have emerged this year,
the first is to always use unisex facilities if they are
available. These were available at the Venetian and the Wynn,
the sites of two of our reported incidents, and if these were
used, these incidents would not have happened.

The other is to avoid using a public ladies room in your home
hotel. Yes, you should be using the one in your room! Should
an incident occur, and you're asked to leave the property, you
may be escorted to the front desk for an involuntary check-out
on your way out!
. . . . .

A couple comments regarding unisex restrooms:

+You need to inspire the girls to use the unisex lavatory. More
+than once I saw girls walk right past a unisex and into the ladies.

Yes, I've seen this too. About all we can do about this is to
ask everyone to consider others and please use unisex facilities
if they are available. Peer pressure is probably the best way of
handling this one. Using unisex facilities is a sure-fire way to
avert incidents.
. . .

and also ...

+A good list of safe and unisex would be helpful.

We're working on this. As we find out about where these are,
we're adding these to the Big List. Donna also posted a number
of them in the Discussion Forum a while back.

For next year, on the final schedule, I would like to post
the locations of unisex and/or out of the way restrooms if
at all possible for as many of the activity venues as we can.
. . . . .

We did have some comments to the effect that there were no
significant issues for some.

+I have not had a public restroom isssue. I avoid them if all
+possible and I behave myself.

That's all we ask you to do, use them only when necessary and
use them appropriately.

+I found the advise that "what goes in must come out" to be
+helpful and it was correct and I found little need to use
+public restrooms of any type.

True, but don't die if thirst! :) Just use common sense and
follow the guidelines. We don't want to scare anybody away
from using a restroom when they truly need to.
. . .

There were a couple comments regarding standing vs. sitting.

+No lipstick jungle behavior and I sit down. I am amazed that
+there are some that still stand up in restrooms.

and ...

+This one "LADY" told us flat-out that "SHE" had no intent
+to sit to urinate. SHAME! Don't you consider your sisters
+at all?

That last sentence says it all, consideration of others.

I heard this same report, from multiple individuals.

I don't know what to think. :( I can only hope that this
individual meant to say "I don't want to sit, so I will use
only unisex and my hotel room" but for some reason I don't
think that was what was intended, as this later comment
indicates:

+I did speak with an attendee who told me she would stand to
+pee regardless of whether she was in a women's or men's room.
+I advised her this was disrepective and provocative and she
+said she didn't care.

Speaking very freely, we don't want this attitude
at DLV! Thank you for letting this person know that such
behavior was out of line. Peer pressure is probably the best
thing that can happen when this attitude is shown.
. . .

+Lighten up on us. I used the womans room and never had an
+issue.

You probably have not had an issue yet because you use them
individually, properly, and, by the luck of the draw, you have
yet to become an innocent passive victim of a restroom incident.
Several of our people have been passive victims over the years,
and when this happens it is embarrassing at best, and often very
devastating.

The next comment, which couldn't have been better if I had
written it myself, :) details why.

+I think that many of our people scoff at the behavior, dress,
+and restroom guidelines up to the point that they, or someone
+close to them, gets the snotty end of the stick from security!

Of the three points of Neptune's Trident here, those being
Behavior, Dress, and Restroom usage, it's restroom guidelines
where I doubt we can do any "lightening up" to any major
extent.

Why?

Because of the three points, restroom usage is the most likely
to get you, or worse an innocent other party or the whole DLV
group, into some real trouble. Getting removed from the property
has happened, a number of times over the years. It happened a
couple times this year, it happened last year, and it's happened
at times in previous years.

+I really think that many DLVers don't realize the importance
+of things like sitting, not standing, not going in groups, not
+being obvious about it, and if not dressed appropriately don't
+use a public ladies room!

Again, I couldn't have said it better myself. :)
. . .

+I think the panic about using restroom was ill advised and
+unnecessary.

and

+I think the whole bathroom thing seems to have sort of overwhelmed
+and become the focal point of the event.

My hunch is that the people making these two comments are unaware
of how things were during the "growth years" of DLV, roughly 2001
thru 2003. We had a number of UGLY and traumatic restroom incidents
during these years, and some ruined vacations due to some being
passive victims.

I'm also very sure that these two have never been the victims of
somebody else's misuse.

As has been said many times before, misusing a ladies room is a
very good way to get SOMEBODY ELSE in trouble!

+Those of us who understand how and why using a womens room is
+a point of sensitivity will be fine... those others who are
+insensitive and ignorant will coninue to reflect poorly on our
+community as a whole.

Very true, and I do think some peer pressure is in order here,
regarding using restrooms properly, and also regarding the
attitude toward the subject and toward the TG community.
. . . . .

I think we had a passive victim here on this one ...

+I was approached by security while leaving the Ladies restroom
+in the Wynn. They asked some questions, which i answered in
+monosyibles as I walked to the front door. They were courteous
+and left me to talk to some other girls when we go outside!

My guess is that you were a victim of time, place, and
circumstance. Most likely some others were the ones who
elicited an observation or complaint, and by the time
security responded, they were long gone and you were the
one who got confronted.

Since they did not push things, I believe that they realized
that you were not the one who brought on the initial report.

That break between the show and the limo tour has been kind
of a trouble spot for us for many years. Right when a show
lets out, there will be a rush (by all, not just DLVers) to
the restroom. Restrooms will be crowded, and our people seem
to congregate in groups in the vicinity of the showroom.

All it really takes is for one person in our group to be seen
walking toward a ladies room by some intolerant civilian, and
a report to security is made.

However, if all who were present at the Wynn that night would
have used the available unisex facilities, this incident would
not have happened!
. . . . .

There appears to be a desire for more guidance with regard to
using public restrooms.

+I didn't have any personal bathroom problems, but it might be
+helpful to have a beginning "bathroom 101" class.

and ...

+Since all the talk about bathrooms, how about a "how-to guide"
+or "best practice" document.

We do have our restroom guidelines on line, and quite a few
hints and suggestions are in that document. Perhaps this needs
to be made more conspicuous or expanded.

As for a "Bathroom 101" class, the topic of roundtable discussions
on this topic has come up, and this was suggested once before.

It was also suggested that we include a proprietor or manager
from one of our venues, to establish some dialog. All it takes for
something like this to happen is for somebody to take the initiative
to plan it.
. . .

I question whether this next one is best practice or not ...

+If I am uncertain I ask someone in authority where I should go.
+I did this a couple of times at DLV (I am normaly pretty
+passible) the persons I asked seemed surprised to be asked
+and readily offered women's rooms without exception or concern.

+The point is that a few ignorant, people will continue to
+create prioblems and reflect poorly on all of us as long as
+they continue their provactive and stupid behavior,
+regardless of any rules and guidance you will request of
+particpants.

Those who don't like having rules will ignore them. That's
where I think we need some peer pressure to take over where
the rules fail. If the abusers hear it from peers, they will
eventually begin to get a clue, hopefully at least.
. . . . .

+Had several comments and looks made to me by others waiting to
+use the restroom at the Bahama Breeze.

This is the first I've heard over the several years we've used
Bahama Breeze of any restroom issues at all there.

Did anybody else notice anything?

One factor which may have played a part here is that for the
last few years, our group was seated far away from the
restrooms and was not obvious to those in the restroom
vicinity. This year we were only a few feet away.
. . . . . . . . . .

Moving on to the second point of the trident, behavior, there
was really only one significant incident I heard any reports of,
which indicates to me that we didn't really have any ongoing
behavior issues this year.

I'm going to call this one an isolated incident, but even as such
it needs to be mentioned, particularly to acknowledge to those
who complained that we heard them, and we'll do what we can to
prevent it in the future.

+The onoy issue I have was with the improper behavior of some
+of the attendees - There is no place at Diva for participants
+to make out, Feel each others boobs and engage in simulated sex
+acts in a mainstream venue.

I heard a second-hand report of this incident in person at DLV.

This (making out, groping, etc.) is not appropriate behavior
for DLV.

This has occurred before, multiple times, and in every case
where the people in question have been called on the carpet,
it's been resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

It's been well-established by precedent that anyone, not just
organizers and volunteers, can confront those who are carrying
on and tell them to knock it off or take it elsewhere.

If you're shy about confronting them, ask for one or more of
the DLV organizers to do the confronting for you.

This is not the first time it's happened, and of all the cases
I know of, those involved have never done anything other than
apologize and knock off the behavior when confronted about it.
. . .

Another comment which falls under behavior more than under
anything else ...

+I had [heard?] some distasteful comments on things about my room
+mate and I. This happen on at lease 3 occasions and in front of
+other attendees.

I don't really know what to say about this one. I didn't hear
anything that sounded like it could be what you're reporting
here, but ...

I hope this is not to be recurrent. The vast majority of DLVers
are considerate of others and refrain from put-downs.

I hope you'll understand that the majority of the attendees are
not this way, and please accept my apology on behalf of the
DLVers who do not wish for things like this to happen.
. . .

This one again falls more under the behavior class than under
dress or restrooms ...

+You need to "divorce" Diva from Wildside and let everyone know
+that they are not part of Diva.

We're probably not ever going to be able to do anything about
nonregistered individuals who want to hang around, and groups
who want to ride our coat tails. Good example is that Comdex was
unable to stop AdultDex even though they spent well into five
figures (possibly six) to try to do so.

The best thing we can do is continue to take the high road, run
an event that's the best we can.
. . . . . . . . . .

Two down, one to go. Moving right along to the topic of dress.

I'll say this up front and for the record. Almost everybody's
dress was appropriate and commendable. Those whose appearance
was a bit off were, with rare exception, those who are climbing
the learning curve and will improve and did so during DLV.

This has been noticed and pointed out:

+This was a great week. No bad incidents effected me. Dress by
+all was very appropriate.

With all of the attention given to the few cases of inappropriate
dress, we need to acknowledge those who dressed properly, and
those who strive to work toward a better appearance, for the
benefit of themselves obviously, but for the group as a whole.
. . . . .

+The Androginous and Goth Clothing questions seem somewhat open
+to me.

The reason I added these questions this year, and the reason I was
asking some opinions on these topics during DLV is that these are
two styles of dress and/or expression which are now invading the
mainstream, and are becoming more and more "usual and customary"
to be see in daily life.

The answers I received were somewhat of a surprise, and they were
echoed on the survey identically to the in-real-life answers I
got during DLV.

I had expected the majority to be disapproving of androgynous and
"genderqueer" looks and expression, but I expected more tolerance
toward punk and goth looks.

Both the opinions I heard and the survey show that there's more
or less the same level of (in)tolerance for both, with a
significant minority having no opinion of any consequence.

The reason I'm bringing these topics up is that these are two
looks which we're going to be seeing more and more, and these
are two looks which are becoming more and more mainstream.

For those who aren't familiar with these concepts, here are a
few links which define and describe them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fashion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punk_fashion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genderqueer

We've seen both goth/punk and androgynous looks over the years
on occasion. Feedback has always shown, and continues to show,
that androgynous looks are disliked.

Nobody's really said much about the goth/punk look. It's coming,
fasten your seat belts! :)
. . . . .

On the positive side of the dress topic, there were no official
(registered, validated) attendees who were involved in any kind
of dress incident that I'm aware of.

I heard no complaints from attendees regarding others' dress,
first hand or otherwise.

I don't remember a single case of the "too natural" look this
year.

I don't recall any cases of any DLV attendee's appearance
attracting any unwanted attention toward those who did not
want such attention.

There is, however, one very recurrent set of opinions and
perceptions which I was made well aware of during DLV and
from the survey.

There appears to be a belief that there is far more
enforcement of dress guidelines than there actually
is in the real world, and that what enforcement there
is, is more severe than it is in actuality.

Over the course of DLV, three individuals came to me with
their opinions and feelings on this topic. Several more of
our attendees mentioned it in passing.

The conversations were all very similar, and went like this:

"I support the behavior, dress, and restroom guidelines, but"

"... the enforcement is too heavy-handed."

These were not just a few malcontents, nor do I believe this
was any kind of orchestrated effort. It was returnees and
longtimers, your peers, valued and well-behaved DLV people,
expressing their sincere concerns.

These comments are reflected in the survey comments such as:

+I have spent many years attending now and am tired of the
+testosterone tempers I see because you don"t like the length
+of a skirt.

+I think the dress code and enforcement need to be relaxed a
+little.

There's definitely a perception that there's far more
"enforcement" going on than there is.

When this was brought up to me at DLV, I asked for specifics,
meaning any incidents of enforcement, other than one in
particular which occurred in 2007. Nobody was able to recall
any others.

I then asked most of them if they would like to volunteer to
be the one who does the enforcing, when and where necessary.
Responses ranged from quickly changing the subject, to a
very assertive "no {f-bomb}ing way!" :)

+We should be one community when we meet, not confronting each
+other about dress and actions.

I agree, but this is a two-way street! The in-your-face personal
style is just as confrontive, if not more so, than any enforcement
I've seen by the DLV volunteers. Bottom line, it's inconsiderate!

+It seems there is little or no tolerance for the clueless and
+the newbe who can see thier true self in the mirror. We need
+to guide with a gentle hand not a club.

I don't think anybody ever intended to come down upon those
who are new or genuinely in need of a clue. Yes, these can be
handled with a guiding hand, and have been in the past.

Those who need to be confronted are not those who are new and
unsure, but those who are self-centered with this cocky "this
is my style, f*ck you" attitude. I'm sure that any of you who
are familiar with our community recognize this attitude.

I think the point at which the line is crossed, and action
should be taken, is when there's a demonstration of the lack
of consideration of others.

It's inconsiderate to misuse public restrooms. It's inconsiderate
to wear a slutty outfit to an upscale mainstream establishment.
It's inconsiderate to play kissy-face and touchy-feely right in
the middle of a large activity. Those actions are examples of
those which reflect badly upon our event and our community.

This is reflected in this comment:

+SHAME on those who would go and represent us badly at the
+Bellagio of all places. Don't you care for anyone but yourself?
+Dressing like a "HO" casts us all in a bad light! Think of your
+sisters next time! SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

That really says it all, consideration of others!

I really think the majority of our people are on the same page
on this, as reflected ...

+It's just simple courtesy to adjust one's clothing to
+accommodate the best style of dress for the occassion
+and people participating.

Another comment along the same lines.

+Some of those attending DLV are experiencing their first or
+rare opportunities to be out in public. Anyone dressing in a
+manner that could bring undo attention to a group should refrain
+from that activity or dress in a mode appropriate for the
+occasion and the fact that there are people that do not care
+for the extra attention.
. . .

+DLV provides venues for all manner of dress from lifestyle
+attire, to the outlandish, the sexy and normal day wear.

Very true. We've always had activities where it's appropriate
to dress to the nines, if you choose to do so, as well as to
dress more outlandishly, if you choose to do so. I don't think
it can be said that there's a lack of opportunities to dress
to thrill or dress to show off at DLV.
. . . . .

+Annie, Aiko, you run a clean ship and can be proud of that.
+Keep it clean, and on course please. Don't let those bastards
+get you down.

Thank you! We've always tried to take the high road with DLV,
and I think most of the attendees want it this way. If anyone
disagrees, please say so!
. . . . .

+If you girls can't come to Vegas to be happy and have fun I
+wish you would stay home, this should not be a stress event.

Very true. I think there's some misunderstanding of the intent
of the guidelines. They're not intending to stress anyone out.

As long as everybody makes a sincere attempt to dress and
behave properly, nobody's going to say or do anything.
. . . . .

This particular suggestion was made:

+For beginners and first timers, have their dress reviewed
+by Glamour Boutique, Studio Lites, Harmony Spa to see if they
+are ready for mainstream activities as far as appearance.

+Those that pass the review can attend mainstream events.

Wow, uh, that's quite a proscription there! :)

I'm sure this was well-intended. However ...

Speaking freely, I don't think we have nearly the resources
that would be necessary to enforce this, plus I don't think
we (meaning both DLV as a whole, and the vast majority of our
beginners and newcomers) need it.

Also, I personally dislike one-size-fits-all solutions.

Many of our newcomers have considerable experience in
mainstream public. IMAO we don't want to burden them with
a hoop-jump at their expense (who is going to pay for the
consult with GB or HNS?) just so they can do what they have
been doing for some time, meaning appearing in mainstream
public.

Most of the rank beginners realize that they are beginners
and try to do the best they can, often seeking help of
Big Sisters or makeover artists.
. . . . .

Despite all of the noise, it's very clear that the rank and
file do support the behavior, dress, and restroom guidelines.

+Which best indicates your feelings toward our level of
+attention to and enforcement of behavior, dress, and
+restroom guidelines?

+I support the current level of enforcement.: 66
+I don't like it, but I understand why it has to be.: 15
+It's a bunch of bullsh*t, knock it off!: 5

It's an understatement to say that TGs don't like being told
what to do!

They don't get told what to do at most other TG events and
don't like it when we do so.

We are the most mainstream of any of the major TG events. We
are the most exposed, and the most vulnerable to the whims
of the intolerant.

I really hate to think of this happening, but it may actually
take a case of the DLV group getting barred from a favorite
mainstream venue in order to convince some that misusing
restrooms has its consequences!

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Denise McCracken
----------

>True, but don't die if thirst! :) Just use common sense and
>follow the guidelines. We don't want to scare anybody away
>from using a restroom when they truly need to.

One year at DLV, I felt like I was getting the flu the last couple
of days. I was drinking bottled water, but lots of alcohol as well.
I got sicker and sicker, and by the time it was time to leave, I was
incapable of sitting up in the front seat of the airplane. I
crawled into the back, and Tony put the luggage all around me.

As we got up to altitude, I was on the verge of passing out, and
suddenly came to terms with the fact that I was going to die, and
arrive as another piece of baggage, and peacefully came to terms
with it. It's a strange feeling. I had to be rushed to the ER,
where they put an IV into me, and I almost immediately felt better.

This is what it is like to come within hours of dying of
dehydration, so if you're worried about the restroom, drink
more water and less alcohol.

-densie

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(This posting was entered by Denise McCracken, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Joan Dupree
----------

Dear Friends,

> Two very important "best practices" have emerged this year,
> the first is to always use unisex facilities if they are
> available. These were available at the Venetian and the Wynn,
> the sites of two of our reported incidents, and if these were
> used, these incidents would not have happened.

True.

> The other is to avoid using a public ladies room in your home
> hotel. Yes, you should be using the one in your room! Should
> an incident occur, and you're asked to leave the property, you
> may be escorted to the front desk for an involuntary check-out
> on your way out!

I think we'd better not let fear rule here. Must we always make the
inconvenient trip upstairs? We must not be afraid. To be honest I've not
heard of a hotel involuntarily terminating a stay. But I guess anything
is possible. (sigh)

> There were a couple comments regarding standing vs. sitting.

> +I did speak with an attendee who told me she would stand to
> +pee regardless of whether she was in a women's or men's room.
> +I advised her this was disrepective and provocative and she
> +said she didn't care.

I guess there are unconcerned people who attend DLV. (sigh)

> +I think that many of our people scoff at the behavior, dress,
> +and restroom guidelines up to the point that they, or someone
> +close to them, gets the snotty end of the stick from security!

I would tend to think only a few scoff, maybe less than the number of
fingers on my left hand.

> +I really think that many DLVers don't realize the importance
> +of things like sitting, not standing, not going in groups, not
> +being obvious about it, and if not dressed appropriately don't
> +use a public ladies room!

Maybe not many, but I'm sure a few.

> +I think the panic about using restroom was ill advised and
> +unnecessary.

Agreed. Using a restroom is nothing to be fearful of.

> That break between the show and the limo tour has been kind
> of a trouble spot for us for many years. Right when a show
> lets out, there will be a rush (by all, not just DLVers) to
> the restroom. Restrooms will be crowded, and our people seem
> to congregate in groups in the vicinity of the showroom.

Let's make use of all good restroom options. discretion is the better
part of valor.

> +Since all the talk about bathrooms, how about a "how-to guide"
> +or "best practice" document.

As a regular user of women's restrooms, I'd be happy to lend my sage
wisdom.

> +If I am uncertain I ask someone in authority where I should go.
> +I did this a couple of times at DLV (I am normaly pretty
> +passible) the persons I asked seemed surprised to be asked
> +and readily offered women's rooms without exception or concern.

I would be very careful here. People in authority often tend to give pat
answers. Just look the part and use the restroom which is appropriate.

Lending a hand, or a life raft. J. here in moderately hot Las Vegas.

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(This posting was entered by Joan Dupree, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Hollyfox
----------

> dehydration, so if you're worried about the restroom, drink
> more water and less alcohol.

. Or lots of alcohol and even more water!

Margeth

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
----------

> . Or lots of alcohol and even more water!

> Margeth

Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Macro!
Oh no! It's Margeth Ma~{{{{NO CARRIER

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Joan Dupree
----------

> The reason I added these questions this year, and the reason I was
> asking some opinions on these topics during DLV is that these are
> two styles of dress and/or expression which are now invading the
> mainstream, and are becoming more and more "usual and customary"
> to be see in daily life.

They are, I see them all the time, in everyday places.

> I had expected the majority to be disapproving of androgynous and
> "genderqueer" looks and expression, but I expected more tolerance
> toward punk and goth looks.

Androgynous and Goth looks are appearing more and more in general
mainstream life. I think they're nothing to be afraid of.

Do androgynous people attract attention. Generally not. They seem to
blend in quite well. I don't find that androgyny causes most people to
do double takes. Most just aren't interested.

As far as goth goes, well we're seeing more of that too. Like anything
else, different people take it to different intensities. Some goth looks
only seem to fit well in the underground scene, and others are more
visible in the mainstream world. Gender fluidity is becoming a more
common and accepted form of expression in the mainstream world.

I really think androgynous and goth looks are nothing to be afraid of. I
think we must refrain from judging what is male or female, or what is
conventional or not. It's time to open up. I did. We'll be all the
better for it.

> Both the opinions I heard and the survey show that there's more
> or less the same level of (in)tolerance for both, with a
> significant minority having no opinion of any consequence.

Are there intolerant people at DLV. I hope not.

> The reason I'm bringing these topics up is that these are two
> looks which we're going to be seeing more and more, and these
> are two looks which are becoming more and more mainstream.

Let's not be so quick to build closets.

> We've seen both goth/punk and androgynous looks over the years
> on occasion. Feedback has always shown, and continues to show,
> that androgynous looks are disliked.

I hope we can practice being more inclusive.

> Nobody's really said much about the goth/punk look. It's coming,
> fasten your seat belts! :)

I love a good ride!

>From LV, all the best to you. J.

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(This posting was entered by Joan Dupree, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: dejah thoris
----------

There certainly are intolerant people there at DLV.

You go so far as to try and regulate what people not even a part
of your group wear.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Kimberly Kael
----------

I'm not the biggest fan of the strictly worded dress code, but I
understand the need to overstate it in order to get people to take it
seriously. I do worry, though, because you could easily rewrite:

>SHAME on those who would go and represent us badly at the
>Bellagio of all places. Don't you care for anyone but yourself?
>Dressing likea "HO" casts us all in a bad light! Think of your
>sisters next time!
SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

... as ...

SHAME on those who would go and represent men badly at the Bellagio of
all places. Don't you care for anyone but yourself? Dressing like a
"woman" casts us all in a bad light! Think of the rest of us next time!
SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

Suddenly the shoe is on the other foot and it seems like we're just
applying whatever arbitrary morals happen to suit us at the moment. It's
a bit of a gray area, except for one thing. DLV is an organize

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(This posting was entered by Kimberly Kael, an external user of MyDLV.)