Bathroom Issue

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This posting is from: Donna Kowalsky
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>>Not full femme = Not in a skirt and heels. I had on lipstick and
>>light foundation and was in jeans and a top.

>That's really not the answer I was looking for. I was looking
>for something about the overall mode of presentation.

Silly me :-P I had on a light powder foundation and pink lipstick and I
was acting natural. I tried to make as feminine a voice as possible. I
am 5' 6" and slender and I have shoulder length hair. I have been on
hormones since '96 and have A- B breasts. All my clothes(jeans, top,
undies and sneakers) were female.

>This one almost seems like a no-brainer. "Cancel my account!"

>Then after things settle, if you really feel like it, go back
>and open a new account from scratch, using the new IDs and such.

>It also might be a topic to discuss with your attorney friend.

As soon as I got home the card went in the shredder. All casinos keep
records of players cards so my male name account will always be in their
records.

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(This posting was entered by Donna Kowalsky, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>Not full femme = Not in a skirt and heels. I had on lipstick and
>light foundation and was in jeans and a top.

That's really not the answer I was looking for. I was looking
for something about the overall mode of presentation.

As I'm sure you know, here and now in 2008, skirt and heels are
the exception to the rule, and in Las Vegas, most of the women
will indeed be "full femme" but dressed casually, with "jeans
and a top" being right toward the peak of the bell curve.

Did your hairstyle say "I'm a girl" or "I'm a guy"? Or maybe
did it say "hmmmmm ... need a closer look to tell ..."?

Did your upper torso say "I'm a girl" or did it say "I'm a
guy" or ...?

What I was getting at is that there are two "looks" which
are seen on occasion in the TG community, neither of which
really works.

One of these is sometimes called the "too natural" or "oh-so
natural" look. This look is hard to define, but you definitely
know it when you see it. If you've been around TG gatherings,
including DLV, I'm sure you've seen it.

It's discussed to a degree on the page:

http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dress/dlvd13.html

The bottom line is that the overall image, from first glance
to closer inspection, is that of a guy.

The thing about the "too natural" look is that usually it seems
like the person trying it is totally oblivious to the fact that
it is not working.

There's another look, not really related to the "too natural"
look, and that is when one appears intentionally androgynous.
"Genderqueer" is the contemporary vernacular term that's now
used for this. This look does not say "I'm a girl" or "I'm a
guy", but more like none of the above. "Gender-nonconforming"
is more of a plain language description of this style.

This look is particularly confusing to Joe Public. They don't
know what to make of it. It's not the in-your-face type of
sociopolitical statement of skagdrag, but nonetheless,
confusing -- one of our organizers has used the term
"threatening" -- to the naive public.

What I was trying to get at, is that if the overall image is
either of the above, there will be issues when going out in
public.

>Despite having a legally issued license with my new legal name
>Donna, the clerk said that because I still had the "M" gender
>marker they would not issue me a new card with Donna on it.

This one almost seems like a no-brainer. "Cancel my account!"

Then after things settle, if you really feel like it, go back
and open a new account from scratch, using the new IDs and such.

It also might be a topic to discuss with your attorney friend.

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>Silly me :-P I had on a light powder foundation and pink lipstick and I
>was acting natural. I tried to make as feminine a voice as possible. I
>am 5' 6" and slender and I have shoulder length hair. I have been on
>hormones since '96 and have A- B breasts. All my clothes(jeans, top,
>undies and sneakers) were female.

I was just concerned that the look you were presenting was either
of those two types which do not work.

If you were indeed presenting in full girlmode, I don't know what
to say.

>>Then after things settle, if you really feel like it, go back
>>and open a new account from scratch, using the new IDs and such.

>As soon as I got home the card went in the shredder. All casinos
>keep records of players cards so my male name account will always
>be in their records.

I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to go open a
new account under your legal name using your new ID. If the
address matches, just tell them it's your brother's account
or something like that.

One trick that some use, when they get an otherwise girlmode
ID with the "M" designation is to "age" the card a bit, make
it show some wear, with a carefully placed smudge partly
obscuring the "M". :)

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Amy Arizona
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OK, I couldn't help myself. I really wanted to see if the casinos
had thought about our issue. They haven't, or at least won't admit
to it. I sent a few e-mails out. Here is an example of my e-mail
are the responses from the Bellagio and NY NY:

>I am a transgendered woman and will be visiting Las Vegas and the
>Bellagio in the near future. I wanted to check with you to see if
>you have any policies regarding the use of public restrooms by
>transgendered persons of which I should be aware. Thank you for
>your assistance.

RE: Transgender Restroom Use
From: "GUESTSERVICES-BCH" <guestservices@bellagioresort.com>
To: Amy

Dear Amy

Thank you for your email. We currently do not have any policies
regarding public restroom use by transgender guests. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Guest Relations

Bellagio has earned the prestigious AAA Five Diamond Award for 2008
---------------------------------

I sent a similar e-mail to NY NY and got this response (I found
this one more comforting):

Thank you for contacting New York-New York. It is our policy not
to discriminate against anyone for any reason. If we can be of
further assistance, please feel free to contact us.

Best Regards,

Kristine Foranoce
Director of Hotel Training and Guest Relations
New York New York Hotel Casino"
*************

One other item that some of you may or may not know is that MGM owns (in
addition to the MGM), every hotel from (and including) the Bellagio to
Mandalay Bay (i.e., Monte Carlo, NY NY, Excaliber, and Luxor ... and the
new City Center project). Although I would have thought (and hoped)
that the responses from the two MGM casinos above would have given a
similar answer, they didn't. That said, MGM has a very strong record on
diversity issues and I will feel comfortable in there -- for those of
you wondering about now, I don't own any MGM stock ... ;).

Although the responses did not (and I did not expect them to) say "Yes,
put on your dress and use our ladies room", they also did not say "Keep
the hell out". Here is the response I sent to Bellagio (I did not
respond to NY NY), and it about sums it up for me:

>Hi again!

>Thank you for your reply. The only reason I ask is to avoid
>any problems. As you may imagine, there is the potential for
>unfortunate misunderstandings with security personnel and the
>like.

>I am at a bit of a loss with your response to know what to do or
>say if confronted by your employees. One option, I know, is to
>not visit your resort. I would hope that that is not your
>additude and don't believe that it is. I understand it is a
>touchy subject and may be one of those things that you have to
>deal with on a case-by-case basis. If nothing else, please
>consider discussing the issue with your employees and asking them
>to be sensitive on the subject. I too will always be respectful
>and defer to the directions from your staff.

>Thank you again.

>Amy

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(This posting was entered by Amy Arizona, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>OK, I couldn't help myself. I really wanted to see if the casinos
>had thought about our issue. They haven't, or at least won't admit

Yes, asking for the official policies might be a Good Thing,
but I might offer you a few points of caution in doing this,
based upon past observation.

1. Even though the policies are not on the books, in most cases
the casino managements have empowered their security staff to
use their best judgement when handling complaints and in
particular, situations not covered by instructions.

Should there be a fuss or a complaint, pushing back and quoting
policy, or lack of same, will probably result in a faster trip
out the front door. Security officers are not diplomats, and
certainly are not civil rights advocates. Their job at the time
is to make the situation go away, and yes, they will "legislate
from the street" at times. As has been found out, complaining
about their actions or demanding to see a manager just speeds
up your trip off the property.

2. Be sure you don't get wound up attempting to negotiate any
"special arrangements", either on behalf of DLV or on behalf
of the TG community in general.

One of our volunteers was understandable upset a few years ago
when somebody took the initiative to make special arrangements
with one property, thus restricting her use of the facility of
her choice.

3. If the word is spread that open access is allowed, history
has shown that some will take this as a license to (mis)use
restrooms with impunity.

Anybody who has ever seen a "frat party" in a ladies room at a
TG event knows exactly what I mean!
. . .

>Thank you for your email. We [Bellagio] currently do not have
>any policies regarding public restroom use by transgender guests.

This is contrary to what Bellagio security people have said in
two cases. Yes, they were probably making up the rules on the
fly, but that's what they do if they think they have to in order
to handle a civilian complaint.

>Although I would have thought (and hoped)
>that the responses from the two MGM casinos above would have
>given a similar answer, they didn't.

Having worked in hotels, I might state that although there
is an overall umbrella, all of the properties have their own
GMs, guest relations, and security staff, all of whom are
empowered to make their own policies and operating procedures.

The NYNY response is the most "warm and fuzzy" one, but the
two worst incidents in our history occurred at MGM properties,
Treasure Island and Mirage.

I'm sure that if there is a fuss or a complaint at NYNY,
similar action will be taken.

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Ginger
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It seems to me hotel and restaurant management does not really
want to deal with this issue in any way; probably because
whatever position they take may create bad publicity. Sensing
this, the obvious best thing is to not ask anymore because we
may keep on asking until we get an answer we don't want.
Moreover, it seems to me that asking might just call
management's attention to a problem that right now doesn't
exist.

We need to go, when we have to go, and we need to try to go
without creating any issues. We need to avoid restrooms with
lines at the door where people are already in a bad mood and
certainly we need to avoid going in in groups. Most of us can
pass by ourself or in the company of a GG, but in groups we
become hard to miss. We need to look like the others going in,
go directly to a stall, latch ourself in, point our feet in
the right direction, maybe make a little noise "slapping" the
toilet tissue while rolling it off, flush, leave the stall
(if someone with small children comes in while in the stall,
probably stay there until they leave because apparently
children can notice what adults don't, although I've not
experienced it) and if others are present when we exit the
stall, quickly wash our hands or just leave and use a handy
wipe later depending on our assessment of the situation.
For us especially, ladies rooms are not places to reapply
makeup and engage others in conversation.

If someone does make eye contact, just look at them and
smile, but don't nod your head, and proceed on.

If someone insists on engaging you in casual conversation in a
restroom, or other public place for that matter, may be better
to just make eye contact back and smile, but otherwise ignore
them, and quickly proceed on. They will likely think you are
a foreigner who does not speak English. I've often had both
men and women ask me for directions, especially while I've
been waiting for arriving passengers at an airport. When I've
not had confidence that I could reply in the right voice
range and inflection, I've just smiled at them with that
inquisitive smile of not knowing what to say. It's been hard
NOT to show expression as they walked away muttering
something like, "damn foreigners are taking over." Sometimes
ignorance is the best policy! :)

Ginger

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(This posting was entered by Ginger, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Annie
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My personal preference is don't ask, don't tell.

>Sensing
>this, the obvious best thing is to not ask anymore because we
>may keep on asking until we get an answer we don't want.

I don't know if asking will elicit a response that we don't
want, but I do know that if, for any reason, there are incidents
that are made known to management, there will be some policies
enacted that we don't like.

We (both DLV and the TG community as a whole) need to show
security and management that we do indeed know how to use
restrooms properly. The only way we're going to do that is
to develop a history of lack of complaints and incidents.

We're not the only TG event which has had difficulty. There
was a case a couple of years ago at a planning meeting for the
largest TG event there is where somebody blatantly misused a
restroom and a complaint to security was made. Management
responded with a very draconian mandate, and it took the
threat of pulling the business to get it reversed.

At DLV, we don't give any property enough business to use that
as leverage. The only leverage we have is a history of being
well-behaved ladies (and gentlemen).

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(This posting was entered by Annie, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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>If someone insists on engaging you in casual conversation in
>a restroom, or other public place for that matter, may be
>better to just make eye contact back and smile, but otherwise
>ignore them, and quickly proceed on.

Ginger, thank you for a really great solution to avoid talking
in the restroom or in public. I will keep that in mind, and
definitely use it when I have to. I've tried to talk to
foreign tourists in the past and can mimic their behavior
in avoiding a conversation.

I agree with you also that management will answer that question
without really answering the question to avoid bad publicity or
liability. Management will not give out more information than it
has to, which I think its why the response was quite vague, and
in a way not to get the person upset or angry.

Those emails from the casinos also tells me that they don't have
anything against us using the facilities, provided no situation or
complaints occurs. When a situation or complaint occurs, then it
becomes a different issue, which will involve security and
everything Annie wrote about.

If I remember discussions in the past...

Remember also, casino management has a larger responsibility
to the general public and their safety. Having a male in a
women's restroom dressed as female and being read, by a gg
female reading this person, who then becomes distraught,
traumatized, scared, feeling violated, or angry about seeing
this, or for that matter sees an excuse or opportunity to sue
the casino for allowing it, who immediately files a complaint,
management and security will have to act immediately to deal
with this issue, open restroom policy or not.

Management will not immediately know your intentions in the
women's restroom. They may see you as some sort of pervert,
molester or rapist, or something bad, checking out women in
the women's restroom, and only have the information based on
the filed complaint. Basically they will see you as a male
that doesn't belong in that restroom, no matter how you are
dressed.

Their immediate concern would be to protect the property, and
to control and resolve the situation quickly and quietly as
possible with the least amount of public attention. Their
actions... well, that has been discussed already.

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Denise McCracken
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>I am a transgendered woman and will be visiting Las Vegas and the
>Bellagio in the near future. I wanted to check with you to see if
>you have any policies regarding the use of public restrooms by

The next time someone writes to a casino about bathroom issues,
could you also ask them what their policy is on large groups of
transgendered nuns in their casinos?

Thanks

-densie

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(This posting was entered by Denise McCracken, an external user of MyDLV.)