Restrooms

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Lori Michaels
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Bathroom Issues from a Law Enforcement perspective:

Restroom Issues seem to always top and continue to be main concerns for
all Trans gendered. Currently and for the past 32 years I have served on
Police Forces in my home state in Illinois in the Chicago Suburbs and
now currently with the Sheriff's Office here in the Florida Keys.

GENERALLY, most state statues are very similar in nature, that it is in
fact against the law for a male to utilize a washroom designated for
females. Well here's the catch....the law does not exactly say that. Let
me explain. Every state has a statue on the books called "DISORDERLY
CONDUCT".. it's a catch all that lawmen use for something that's not
exactly on the books. For an example: someone fighting, someone picking
his nose and flicking it across the room in a crowded restaurant and it
landing in your soup or a male caught in the female's washroom.

But you say. " I'd FIGHT THAT IN COURT !!!" Yes , you sure can, but we
Cops have a little saying, " you might beat the rap, but you can't beat
the ride" and personally most of us don't look good in an orange
jumpsuit.

Fighting your arrest in court:

After being arrested, searched, wig removed in public to be searched for
weapons or contraband in front of all of Las Vegas, your cuffed and
stuffed into the back of a smelly police prowler unit and taken to the
city or county jail where at that point sleeping all night in a porta
potty is sounding pretty good !

Footnote: At this point it's not a good idea to argue your case or to
lie to the Cops, from experience I have people that were truthful and
walked, others who lied spent the night at the CROSSBAR MOTEL.

You'll be booked, photographed (by the way these are not Glamor Shots,
it'll look more like Nick Nolte's photo ) then strip searched( by men ?
women ? if you have been strip searched it really don't matter girl )
given an orange jumpsuit and flip flops. By now you will have missed
dinner, but will be just in time for sex........I'll let you figure that
one out...

After you bond out,you secure an Attorney to fight these "OUTRAGEOUS
CHARGES!" (average cost of a trial Attorney = $3,000 to $10,000 )
Then,,as the judge raises his gavel, slams it on his desk and exclaims
"GUILTY AS CHARGED!, 364 days in Jail, $1,000 fine and cost costs, 45
days community service. (excessive ? of course, but it COULD happen)

At this point you begin to realize the importance of a pair of "Depends"

If your a Transsexual, I'd carry that letter from your Doctor/Therapist
declaring your gender situation just in case. I have seen some
Transsexuals who need to carry that letter...........

In short here's my advice :

1. If you pass, I mean honestly pass, the use the ladies room.

2. Look for those handicap bathrooms or "Family bathrooms where you can
lock the door.

3. Look for a washroom out of the way, and observe traffic going in and
out and then get in and get out, don't loiter or "primp"

4. Ask a Security Guard or someone in charge for assistance. Many now
understand our plight and have taken the lead in change. (Walt Disney,
American Airlines, Xerox, Cities of Chicago, San Francisco and my
employer Monroe County, Florida to name a few)

5. HOLD IT ! Yes, HOLD IT, do you REALLY GOTTA GO ?

6. I have in fact have used the Men's room while dressed, who cares !
All I'm gonna do is PEE !!! What's the big deal? Really ?

7. If you REALLY REALLY GOTTA GO, follow the above guidelines and at
least you have some explanations to give to the responding officers.

8. Above all refer to DLV washroom guidelines.

THE REALITY OF IT ALL........... I have been out and have observed girls
who did not use good judgment in washroom selection and were confronted
by the Police.

Most Cops have seen it all and have better things to do than bust T
girls using the Ladies room, HOWEVER I have seen T girls who thought
that standing up to the Police was their right! ...please refer back to
being handcuffed and hauled off as aforementioned previously....

Be "Ladylike", apologize, explain any of steps #1-#8 that you took. But
don't forget also, you may be up against some snot nosed rookie or some
woman who is the local chapter president of a Religious Reich Wing
Organization who's values are similar in nature to the Taliban........In
that case, where issues are being pressed by the citizen, Police are
pretty much helpless if a citizen demands to press charges, If there is
true probable cause, the Police are immune from Civil Liability when a
citizen signs the complaint.

I hope that this has offered some additional guidelines that will make
your visit to Vegas or anywhere for that matter a FUN one like it should
be !

Lori Michaels #7391
Monroe County Sheriff's Office
Key West, Florida

www.keysso.net To contact me : lorisfla@yahoo.com

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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I would like to thank Lori for sending that in.

As most everybody knows, there is much misinformation in the community
with regard to legal issues and with regard to restrooms, and it is very
nice when somebody who indeed *does* have an authoritative point of view
on the topic comes forward and comments for the record.

I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on line, so just prior to DLV 1999
I booked an office call with my attorney on this very subject. At the
same time one of the local ladies asked a local (Metro) Police officer
what the story was. The answer from the attorney and the officer were
almost identical, and both of their comments were reflected in Lori's
remarks.

Although I'm sure Lori did not intend to scare anybody off by describing
the arrest and booking process, this does emphasize the importance of
using public restrooms properly.

Yes, in recent years there have been restroom incidents during DLV which
have resulted from customer (citizen) complaints which could have been
referred to the legal system if somebody wanted to push the issue.

It's our goal this year to have zero incidents of any significance.
We're asking everybody's cooperation in helping us to reach that goal.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Aiko
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Lori,

Thank you for this perspective from a professional law enforcement
officer. This message comes at a very appropriate time, as we should
all be thinking about the things that will help curtail negative
incidents at DLV04, which restroom and behavior incidents seem to be the
issues that cause grief to a few attendees.

Speaking freely, the negative incidents or restrictions on restroom use
by our group has historically been due to the lack of concern for
others, an attitude of defiance, a lack of awareness to the mainstream
environment, or just plain stupidity. Because of one or a combination
of the reasons above, we had restrictions placed on us at one hotel and
had an incident that ruined the vacation for an attendee at another.
That is the reason that several of the DLV organizers are trying to make
everyone aware of the need to observe and comply with the DLV
guidelines.

I would like to mention that the DLV organizers are serious about this
issue.

Like you, the vast majority of DLV attendees have a wonderful attitude
and simply want to enjoy the vacation and join the fun that DLV offers
to all.

This year, we are trying to make everyone aware of the potential for
problems, especially those who have demonstrated in the past, that their
behavior appears to be in defiance of the guidelines. Those who fail to
comply will be asked to remedy their situation, and if needed, will be
excused from participating in that activity.

Again, thank you for your message and certainly look forward to seeing
you again and having a wonderful, incident-free DLV in just a few short
weeks.

Huggs,

Aiko

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Aiko
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Debi,

Thanks for the question, and you are absolutely not being a pest by
asking it. Actually, it would be refreshing for others in doubt to ask
about the topic of restroom use. Annie includes the guidelines for not
only restroom use, but behavior, dress, and Conditions of Participation
toward the end of the general mailings.

If you missed it in the last mailing, the addresses
are:

Behavior guidelines:
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlvbehav.html
Dress guidelines:
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlvdress.html
Restroom guidelines:
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlvrestr.html
Conditions Of Participation:
http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlv2004/2004cop.html

These should answer your questions. But, if you have any doubts, please
ask the questions and the organizers will try to answer them as
thouroughly as possible.

See you at DLV04.

Huggs,

Aiko

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Lori Michaels
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Hey Girl !

Well let me condense the letter that I posted and simply say this, If
you pass, don't worry.

If your'e like me and don't pass, then common sense comes into play.
Some of the hotels actually have washrooms for us girls. But by
following the basic 8 suggestions it should help keep you out of
problems.

We really are stuck between two worlds and there really is not much that
we can do about it. But don't forget like I mentioned,if you REALLY
REALLY GOTTA GO,and don't want to take ANY chances at all for fear of
arrest,,use the mens room, you can't be arrested for that. You may get
funny looks ? Here's my outlook,screw them if they don't like it.

Hope this helped a little !
Hugs
Lori

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Lori Michaels
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Dear Rhianna,

Yes ! It's all attitude ! Many unexpected but delightful conversations
have erupted during visits to the Men's room.

I'm with you ! Who cares ! We just wanna Pee and get the heck out !!!!

I'll go to Dennys anytime with you girl !!!

Hugs
Lori

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: debi
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So, just what are the rules for bathrooms, sorry to be such a pesk but
i still can't figure this out? I wnat to be sure to be safe.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Rhianna
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Here's an experience of mine. Hope y'all find it as funny as I did.

I was in a Denny's en femme and had to use the restroom in a bad way.
Not being certain of laws and/or policies, I used the men's room,
figuring whet's the difference as they've all seen me in the dining
area.

Upon entering, there was a fella in the stall. Although I could have
used the urinal, I was damned if I would dressed as I was. So I stood
by the wall looking at myself in the morror on the opposite wall
waiting for the fella to come out of the stall. When he did, he looked
up and stopped dead in his tracks.

At that moment, i smiled and said, "Not what you expected, huh?" He
lightened up, smiled and kinda laughed in a manner I didn't take as
offensive.

Moral: make the best of an otherwise embarrassing situation.

Rhianna Roberts (Phoenix)

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>So, just what are the rules for bathrooms, sorry to be such a pesk but
>i still can't figure this out? I wnat to be sure to be safe.

For most of the people attending DLV, I know of only two restroom
options that will be 100% safe 100% of the time, and those are:

1. The facilities in your own home or hotel room.

2. Public facilities which are clearly marked unisex.

(DLV organizer hat on)
We don't have any "rules", as we, the DLV organizers, can't give anybody
permission to use any facilities we don't own or control, and likewise we
can't tell you, as a private citizen, that you can't use any facilities.

We've established some guidelines. I've posted the URL below. These are
the suggestions that come from the DLV organizers, but they are in most
cases not hard and fast rules. You must use these and other suggestions
to make your own personal decision about what public facilities you will
use, if any.
(DLV organizer hat off)

The general answer as to which facility to use is "it depends", and it
depends on a lot of things, such as where you are, how badly you need to
go, the type of facilities available, how obvious the group is, your
personal legal standing, and yes, how well you blend or pass.

Where you are makes all kinds of difference. For example, the places we
use for such things as the Welcome Celebration and the Annual Mixer are
what the DLV organizers call "safe venue" facilities. These have been
selected because everybody in our group can be comfortable in them, and
in general, they present very little challenge with regard to restrooms.
Almost always (this is a personal suggestion, not permission) in these
places you are reasonably safe using the restroom you feel more
comfortable using. (Or even in some cases, the one with the shorter
line.) :)

On the other end of this spectrum would be the larger public facilities
that are known for being "family friendly", such as some of the newer
"theme" casinos and various tourist attractions. These present a much
higher degree of risk.

What type of facility makes a lot of difference. A lockable one-seater
of any designation is much safer a choice than a huge "lounge" with tens
of stalls, attendants, etc.

Please read the restroom guidelines at:

http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/dlvrestr.html

It has a lot of very good real-world information in it. (Besides,
Michelle put a lot of effort into putting that together.) :)

Almost all of the restroom incidents I'm aware of in the t* community,
both at DLV and elsewhere, have not been due to the use of a restroom,
but due to the MISUSE of a restroom, such as being too obvious or using
the restroom in groups. (Hmmmm ... I guess going in groups would be a
case of being too obvious in itself.) :)

I think you will be fine if you use common sense and consider the
effects of your actions on others.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Lori Michaels
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And thanks for your nice note back !

Hugs
Lori

--- Rhianna <dlvdisc@geekbabe.com> wrote:

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