Hunters

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This posting is from: mindyjrussell
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I belong to a Chicago area online t-girl group. Over the past few weeks
there has been some reported problems at Hunters. Following Be All they
started checking id's at the door and it is reported that Transgender
gals were being denied admission if they used thier male id for
admission. I will keep a watch on the issue and let you know if we get
any response on this new policy at Hunters from thier managment. I
would hate to make a trip all the way out there and not get in. It has
also been reported that it has had some t prostitute problems like those
at the LVL in Vegas.

Mindy

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This posting is from: annie
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>Over the past few weeks there has been some reported problems
>at Hunters. Following Be All they started checking id's at the
>door and it is reported that Transgender

This is very similar to a report that we received in 2007. Here's
an attributable item about that incident.

I'm very surprised that any bar would discourage business in the
current economic times.

Here's the item:

Local Gay Club Allegedly Turns Away Trans Individuals

by Amy Wooten
Windy City Times - IL,USA
2007-04-04

http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=14466

A trans individual, accompanied by two other trans friends, were
allegedly denied entrance to a suburban gay bar, but the nightspot's
owner says it was supposedly due to a specific incident that night
that required the nightclub to be strict with regards to
identification, and trans individuals and those in drag will never
be turned away again.

On the night of March 24, "Roxy Rockefeller" (the individual's
non-legal preferred name for purposes of this article) and two of
her friends were allegedly turned away from Elk Grove Village's
Hunters Nightclub. Roxy told Windy City Times that although she and
her friends had come to the bar in drag several times before with no
problems, that night was different. They were allegedly told that
their drivers licenses needed to match their personas, and even when
Roxy offered to remove her wig, they were still allegedly denied
entrance. According to Rockefeller, the staff cited a Cook County
law regarding IDs.

The Cook County Human Rights Ordinance, although it protects against
discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, does
provide an exception to the rule: if an ID is required, the ID much
match the persona of the individual.

The bar's owner says that the ordinance and the law contradict each
other, and the bar is working towards rectifying the issue.

Rockefeller says that she was supposedly told by the bar to go to
the Department of Motor Vehicles to obtain an ID that pictures her
in drag. A trip to the DMV the following week proved to be a
fruitless effort.

"They were making my weekend stressful, trying to make me jump
through hoops just for one bar," she said. Rockefeller added that
she did not understand why, out of all of the LGBT Chicago-area
bars, only one would suddenly stop allowing trans individuals and
those in drag into the bar.

Rockefeller described being both angry and embarrassed that night.
"I may not know a lot of things, but I do know what is right and
what is wrong. We were humiliated."

Peter Landorf, Hunters' owner, told Windy City Times that on that
particular evening, Rockefeller and her friends were turned away
because of concerns over the Cook County ordinance due to a specific
"one-time" occurrence in the club that night. "They are welcome in
our club," Landorf said. "There were other instances that happened
that evening that made it be as severe as it was, but other than
that, everyone is welcome in the club."

Landorf told Windy City Times he is speaking with the American Civil
Liberties Union to get the situation worked out, so the bar can
protect itself while continuing to serve the entire community.

"The problem maybe did get a little blown out of proportion, but we
are doing damage control and everything is back to normal," he said.
"Everyone is welcome, just like they were before."

Copyright C 2007 Windy City Media Group. All rights reserved.

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This posting is from: Francine
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The policies had Hunters have changed repeatedly depending on who is in
charge of the door men and bouncers.

I can go back about 5 years and it would not be unusual to find at least
a half dozen to even 2 dozen working gals there. When the working gals
traffic starts getting heavey the police start getting involved and make
a few arrests. This puts pressure on Hunters if they want there
liscenses renewed.

I had been carded there many a times while I did not have a feamale ID.
Usualy after carding me they would mark my had and inform me if I left I
could not return that evening. the enforcement of this depended on who
was at the door that day.

On one ocassion last summer I was refused admission. They said the
picture on the ID was not a close enugh match to how I looked. It
should be noted that there no way I could pass for being under the age
of 30 least of all 21. Also on an old federal law case carding
individuals over the age of 30 can only be done for justifiable cause.
In the case a blck male in his 40's was deneyed enterance to a
predominent white night club because he did have an ID with him. the
local and state apeal was in favor of the club but the district court
ruled in favor of him with the supreme court refusing the case.

Fran

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: annie
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>Also on an old federal law case carding individuals over the
>age of 30 can only be done for justifiable cause.
>... the local and state apeal was in favor of the club but
>the district court ruled in favor of him with the supreme
>court refusing the case.

Do you happen to have a reference or citation for this
particular case? A quick Google search turns up nothing.

Thanks.

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[External Poster]

This posting is from: Lyseth
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Back when I first got involved with Equality Illinois and went to my
first Lobby Days, in Springfield, I needed to get a legal photo ID in
order to get into the Capitol building. The DMV had no problem with my
presentation, and I got the ID. It has "my" picture, and "his"
information, and it has never been contested at Hunters, whenever they
were "checking IDs". It also has been helpful when dealing with any of
the local police. ( I have been known to drive aggressively. )

Lyseth

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This posting is from: Leighana
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because your probable white, is why you never had a problems with the
local police. A black transgender had better pray if she is stopped by
the police and she does not have "her" information on her lic.

Leighana A. Leighton.

--- On Thu, 7/2/09, Lyseth <pinkfest@pinkmyst.com> wrote:


From: Lyseth <pinkfest@pinkmyst.com>
Subject: Re: [pinkfest] Hunters
X-Discedit: YES
To: pinkfest@pinkmyst.com
Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 10:54 AM


Back when I first got involved with Equality Illinois and went to my
first Lobby Days, in Springfield, I needed to get a legal photo ID in
order to get into the Capitol building. The DMV=A0 had no problem with my
presentation, and I got the ID. It has "my" picture, and "his"
information, and it has never been contested at Hunters, whenever they
were "checking IDs". It also has been helpful when dealing with any of
the local police. ( I have been known to drive aggressively. )

Lyseth


--0-1016148477-1246559173=:13431

<table cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"0" ><tr><td valign=3D"=
top" style=3D"font: inherit;">because your probable white, is why you never=
had a problems with the local police. A black <SPAN>transgender</SPAN> had=
better pray if she is stopped by the police and she does not have "her" in=
formation on her lic. <BR><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV></DIV><IMG src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/4=
0.gif">  <EM><FONT color=3D#ff00ff size=3D5 face=3Darial><SPAN>Leighan=
a</SPAN> A. Leighton. <IMG src=3D"http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/=
tsmileys2/39.gif"></FONT></EM></DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Thu, 7/2/09, Lyseth <=
I><pinkfest@pinkmyst.com></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5=
px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px"><BR>From: Lyseth <pinkfest@pinkmyst.com><BR>Sub=
ject: Re: [pinkfest] Hunters<BR>To: pinkfest@pinkmyst.com<BR>Date: Thursday=
, July 2, 2009, 10:54 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=3DplainMail>Back when I first got involved with Equality Illinoi=
s and went to my<BR>first Lobby Days, in Springfield, I needed to get a leg=
al photo ID in<BR>order to get into the Capitol building. The DMV  had=
no problem with my<BR>presentation, and I got the ID. It has "my" picture,=
and "his"<BR>information, and it has never been contested at Hunters, when=
ever they<BR>were "checking IDs". It also has been helpful when dealing wit=
h any of<BR>the local police. ( I have been known to drive aggressively. )<=
BR><BR>Lyseth<BR><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></td></tr></table>
--0-1016148477-1246559173=:13431--

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This posting is from: Francine
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I believe the original case was around 1992 in the state of Wisconsin.
The reason I remember it so well was because a lot of night clubs had to
change there carding policy because of this judgement.

In Milwaukee there were numerions clubs that carded all Afro-American
males and seldom if ever carded Causasian or females. After this
judgement was passed they went to 100% carding policy regardless of age,
gender, or skin color. Most of these clubs ened up closing down within
the next few years because attendence dropped. On club owner explained
that 18 to 21 year old females brough in the male business, With 100%
carding these girls could not get in so the male clients dropped as
well. Then they said Afro-American as well as Hispanic males will
seldom if ever have an id so they will not come in with a 100% carding
policy.

It is hard to hold a policy of carding under 30 since it is just as
difficult to judge if someone is 30 as it is to judge if they mnight be
under 21. So they adapted a 100% carding policy at the advice of there
lawyers. In wisconsin now three underage incidents can lead to a loss of
liscense. I doubt I'll is much different.

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This posting is from: Lyseth
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Leighana,

I cannot argue with that possibility, anything is possible.

I can feel reasonably assured that that would not be the case here in
Illinois. One of the "Lobby Day" trips to Springfield was to get gender
identity, and gender presentation included in the protection under the
State's anti discrimination law, and I have talked to representatives of
the State's Attorney's office, and they are prosecuting cases under that
law.

The city of Chicago, and Cook County, had that protection before it was
included at the state level.

Lyseth

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This posting is from: Allison
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Okay I have been following this thread from the begining (including the
other on-line group that started this controversy) and decided to find
out just what the policy at Hunter's is and what happened that night.

I want to start out by stating that I was not at the door that night nor
was I even at Hunter's so what I have heard about the incident was
coming third hand since the person telling me about this also did not
witness what happened first hand.

My partner and I went to Hunter's last night to have a couple of drinks
and also I wanted to talk to some of the staff to see if I could find
out just why this happened again after Hunter's said in a Windy City
Times article last year that they would never again turn away someone
from the trans community again (here is a link to that article:
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/gay/lesbian/news/ARTICLE.php?AID=3D14466).

Having gone there off and on for the last 8 years I have gotten to know
several of the bartenders and security staff very well.

After talking to several of the bartenders and security staff including
those at the door last night I can tell you that Hunter's has not
instituted a new policy to try to keep the transgendered community from
patronizing them.

>From what the security staff told me and also one of the bartenders who
is also the partner of one of the owners the girl in question was denied
access to Hunter's because her ID did not look anything like how she was
presenting. Now as has been posted there is a clause in the cook county
ordinance that states that if an ID is required then it must match the
persona of the person presenting it. By the letter of the law if your ID
shows a male person and yor trying to get into anyplace in cook county
requiring ID's then you can be denied.

Now before any of you start jumping all over that last statement the
night in question and more directly the gal in question was probably
checked by either Mark (one of the owners) of one of a couple of new
security staff that were at Hunter's that night and who take the
ordinance and following it to the letter seriously. It is after all
their liquor license that is in jeopordy if they are cited for
non-conformance. 95% of the security staff know that most of the
transgendered community do not have an ID that matches how they are
presenting and will allow admittance if you do present a valid ID.

What I was told is that if you had waited even 30 min after that
incident you probably would have had different securoity staff at the
door and would not have had a problem getting in. This probably explains
why there were posts from other girls who said they did not have any
problems getting in that same night.

Is this wrong even for one girl to be subjected to this? Yes it is and
while I am upset that it happened it is what it is and there is nothing
we can do to change this situation other than live with it. I will tell
you this ... if we as a community make a major issue out of this one
incident like what happened last year when the Windy City Times was
involved then I was told that Hunter's could insititute a policy where
all people presenting an ID will be rewuired to have a photo that
represent the way that they look at that time of entrance.

I feel this is a threat to keep us quiet and blackmail but at the same
time I am also aware that the people that would be hurt most are those
that need to be able to go to places like Hunter's. If Hunter's were to
insititue a policy where all ID photos must match the person of the
person showing it then I would estimate that 75% of our community would
not be able to get in. While it doesn't matter to me as I am full time
and my ID has my Female name and gender on it this is not the case for
most of us. Even those that have not transitioned and are lucky enough
to have a picture on their drivers license that looks just like they
present when going out dressed are not going to be effected by this
policy but think of the ramifications. If one bar institutes such a
policy there is a chance that other bars in the Chicago metro area could
also and that would hurt all of us.

I think that we as a community will have to decide just how we want to
approach this incident and what we are prepare to lose if we want to
make an issue of what happened. Maybe what is required is that we have
IGA or EqIL get involved and meet with the staff at Hunter's to see how
this can be resolved to the benifit of all of us.

Allison

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This posting is from: Annie
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>(including the other on-line group that started this controversy)

Maybe you can answer this, which is still very hazy in my mind ...

Is this due to a recent (meaning recently in 2009) report of
admission denial at Hunters or is this a recycling of the report
which came out in 2007?

>Now as has been posted there is a clause in the cook county
>ordinance that states that if an ID is required then it must
>match the persona of the person presenting it.

Something here is not passing the smell test.

For something far more serious in nature, the DHS has very
similar verbiage in their instructions to airline ticket agents
and officers who staff checkpoints.

I have yet to hear of a case (since 2005 or so) where a
TG, flying in the mode opposite that on the ID, was refused
boarding.

It's universally the case at airports. If the image on the ID
is a recognizable likeness of the person presenting the ID,
boarding is permitted. Same for every other bar I'm aware of,
even those which Card Hard<tm>, and other case where an ID is
requested, such as the places which ask for IDs when using a
credit card.

>By the letter of the law if your ID shows a male person and
>yor trying to get into anyplace in cook county requiring ID's
>then you can be denied.

Do you or anybody have a reference to this exact statute? It
might be interesting to see exactly how it is worded.

The thing is, though, we don't hear reports of TGs being
denied admission to other bars and clubs in Cook County
where this ordinance is supposedly in effect, only Hunters.

The big unanswered question in this thread is the actual age
of the report. Is this fresh and current information, or is
this a stale report of what happened in 2007?

If it's a recycled report of a long-gone incident, we can
dismiss it as netlore and move on. If it's fresh information
about a recent incident, then we may have something to be
concerned about.

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