Various issues and comments

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This posting is from: Michelle Jenkins
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Hi

I been watching the post event discussion and statistics with some interest.
I noted, even the survey that there were some differences in the
experiences.

We seem to have some diverse views on a number of issues. The following is
my view and commentary on these.

Dress Code / Costumes
=====================

Clearly two views:

- Its OK, Live and Let Live
- Its not OK, Why wasn't something done about it?

I'm split as to whether this is an issue or not but I would say the
following:

- A group of men went to a technology conference (for example) where all but
one person was business casual. Now would it make a difference if the the 1
person was wearing:

A) a Tuxedo
B) a Chicken Suit
C) Swimming togs / Swim Suit (topless male)
D) Male Tutu (Ballet) costume

- Or a group of women were at the same conference and all but one was
wearing business casual and the 1 person was wearing:

A) a Ball Gown
B) a Chicken Suit
C) 1/2 piece swim suit
D) Female Tutu (Ballet) costume

Now:

- The two A's (man/woman) are clearly not dressed as the rest of the group,
clearly stand out and would be immediately noticed by any observer. Neither
is indecent and while noticeable would (probably) soon be ignored

- The two B's are clearly weird and asking for attention and possibly
trouble. My guess is that they would be asked to leave.

- The two C's, again not indecent but clearly inappropriate for the context
of a conference or meeting. In many cultures, situations something would be
said and they would be required to leave. (In fact taking this a little
further, on a golf course you would definitely be given "the order of the
boot" until you changed!)

- The two D's are less blatant form of B, costumes but gender appropriate,
and not indecent. Both would attract comments and attention. My guess is
that they MIGHT be asked to leave.

The question then arises about whether the clothes are a costume or simply
elegant evening clothes. Quoting directly from June's e-mail "... I guess I
have been accused by self appointed DLV fashion policemen of
wearing ball gowns and hoop skirts and fairy princess outfits....". Ball
gowns and Hoop skirts NOT costume(IMO), Fairy princess - costume (IMO).

So maybe a bit of right and wrong there.

What worries me about this is the first part : "... I have been accused by
self appointed DLV fashion policemen...". The reality appears, from the
comments, that a number of attendees (not necessarily or apparently part of
the organisers group) expressed dismay or concern. "Accuse" is such a strong
term and is not appropriate. As to the fashion police, the attendees
concerned were simply observing their view that a written guideline was not
being adhered to.

Some years ago we had another attendee who was "observed" to be dressing in
contradiction of the guidelines. When the issue was raised with that person
a firestorm of sorts broke out that eventually led to her being "uninvited"
from DLV. That all started from e-mails similar to Janes, basically decrying
the criticism and demanding the right to dress how they please.

I really don't think we want to go there again!

Both Sides of this argument need to moderate their views. Jane (and others)
that want to wear period dress, ball gowns, etc should be able to do that as
long as its done with taste and not the ONLY thing they wear to every
activity. In particular I would say that mainstream locations off strip are
fine and cause little real issue where the level of exposure and anxiety
created to others is not acceptable. (My next point covers mainstream / main
street / strip definitions and might explain that better). I'm really not
sure that its appropriate in the LV strip casinos and hotels (generally).

Consideration for DLV and the organisers of the activity would imply that if
a form of dress is required then the attendee should attempt to comply
however outside of those activities I would suggest anyone can do as they
please and if they want to do the Bo Peep or Fairy Goddess thing get some
friends and go off and do it. But don't disrespect the organisers and DLV
generally by doing at activities that have some semblance of dress code.

My final point on this matter is "Let the wearer beware!" In the past ( my
opinion that) organisers (of which I've been part of for a long time) have
erred on the side of caution. In particular, we've been aware of the "flow
on" affect of one incident or issue leading to other bigger issues for
(often unconnected and innocent) parties later on. There have for example
been several incidents with restrooms, where apparently innocent girls were
embarrassed by security because of actions or acts of those that had gone
before. The same applies to wearing different or non similar clothes. While
that person may be well appreciated and untouched, those that follow or are
in the vicinity who neither wish or want the same attention suddenly get it
and sometimes with unwelcome results.

This is primarily why their needs to be moderation and consideration on both
sides of this issue.

Mainstream and Main Street
==========================

Some years ago (maybe ten + years??) there was a clear trend to move from
some of the off strip "gay" bars and places to more mainstream locations. I
think this reflected a maturity that grew quickly in the early years of DLV
and a core group of people who returned year after year and wanted to extend
their range of activities.

Indeed the current Trevi dinner was born out of my requirement to go to the
better class restaurants that frequent the LV Strip hotels and casinos.
Gina, a good friend of mine, made friends with Charles and so was born the
Charles bar experience at the Bellagio. There are numerous other examples
where we have gone mainstream.

Unfortunately my definition of mainstream is not the same as that used Annie
and others.

To me mainstream is the LV strip (Bellagio, Wynns, Paris, etc) and off strip
casino's and hotels (LV Hilton), pretty much of any standard. The definition
used (not necessarily mine) includes the Bahama Breezes and so on, that are
NOT gay / lesbian / closeted places but open and used by the public at the
same time we are there.

I fully support the use of BB and others for the large activities for
numerous reasons:

- Group Size
- Economic ($)
- No or little deposit / up front cost / risk
- Economic ($)
- Parking and Access
- Economic ($)
- Ease of organisation
- Economic ($)
- Known quantity of the establishment(s)
- Economic ($)
- Menu and service
- Economic ($)
- Separate bills
- Economic ($)
- etc

However, on vacation I like to try / go places that are new, unique or maybe
up market (Read $$$$) as well and this is where I think we see some
commentary from the survey about the need for more mainstream. I think its
more MORE Main Street (ie LV Strip places).

For the LV locals they probably don't care so much as they can come and go
as they please but for visitors maybe first timers even (to LV not
necessarily dressing) I'm sure there's that need to see the lights and
sights of the strip more than the cafi's and restaurants and bars 2 miles
either side.

AS I said earlier I have far less problems with some "less than conforming"
dressing at say BB than I would at say Trevi. The latter environment is so
much less controllable and likely to be more problematic if issues do arise
(example drunk male 20 somethings spotting a group of 50+ Cders and deciding
its time to make a scene!!!)

Nevada Anti discrimination Law
==============================

Absolutely stoked that this law has been passed. But ladies, don't believe
it gives carte blanche to do as you please, where you please, when you
please. It simply states that the owners can't discriminate based on gender
identity but if you get drunk and start screaming obscenities at the passing
normals, expect to be thrown out or in to jail in all of the following
circumstances:

- Genetic Male 20 Year old
- Genetic Male 40 Year old
- Genetic Male 60 Year old
- Genetic Female 20 Year old
- Genetic Female 40 Year old
- Genetic Female 60 Year old
- Male to Female Cross Dresser (any age)
- Female to Male Cross Dresser (any age)
- Male to Female Pre-op trans sexual (any age)
- Female to Male Pre-op trans sexual (any age)
- Male to Female Post-op trans sexual (any age)
- Female to Male Post-op trans sexual (any age)
- Dressed as a chicken
- Dressed in Tuxedo
- etc

The problem with being different is that being different is noticed
irrespective of the law, all the law does is say you need another reason to
thrown them out rather simply cause they are different.

As for restrooms:

- if a male goes into a (any) restroom and does something silly (exposes
himself, propositions someone, etc), its reported, he will get thrown out

- if a MTF CD/TS goes into a (any) restroom and does something silly
(exposes herself, propositions someone, etc), its reported, he will get
thrown out

And as has been investigated and reported numerous times, there is no law in
LV that prevents men using womens restrooms and if an issue arose you'd most
likely be held on creating a disturbance or something rather than using the
wrong rest room per se.

Bottom line, and unchanged from the gospel of the last 15 years: If you use
the ladies, behave like a lady in there. Sit to pee, no standing. Finish,
wash your hands, makeup maintenance if you have to, and leave.

Going to the bathrooms in pairs is not a "group" in my opinion. 3 or 4 at a
time is very marginal and any more than that is asking for trouble. Law or
no law moderation and slinking below the radar is required for restroom
activities!!!!

Golf Timing
===========

I saw a comment or two about the golf timing. While I haven't played with
DLV group for a couple years (not there) when I was the main justification
for the early start is the length of time it takes to get everyone round,
complete the post round prizing giving, have lunch and then get back to the
strip and STILL allow enough time for the golfers to be ready for the
evening activities.

Anything after after a10:00am start means a 2:30-3:00 finish and probably
close to a 5:00pm return to the strip with an hour or less to be somewhere
for the evening activity.

The last DLV golf I was at the last group took in excess of 5 hours for a
course that can be completed in less than 3, especially in a cart.

Apart from that, the early start, especially in later April and May means
missing the hottest parts of the day and quite often also misses the worst
of the wind.

Length of Stay
==============

> Length of stay:
> +Approximate average length of stay: 5.53 days.
> The average length of stay has been very consistent over the past
> several years, regardless of whether the official length of the event
> was 6 or 7 days.
>
> 2006: 5.38
> 2007: 5.5
> 2008: 5.32
> 2009: 5.26
> 2010: 5.21
> 2011: 5.53
> . . . . .
> On what date did you arrive for DLV 2011?
> Before Sunday, April 3: 43
> Sunday, April 3: 33
> Monday, April 4: 15
> Tuesday, April 5: 4
> Wednesday, April 6: 10
> Thursday, April 7: 1
> Friday, April 8: 0
>
> +On what date did you depart DLV 2011?
> +Sunday, April 3: 1
> +Monday, April 4: 0
> +Tuesday, April 5: 1
> +Wednesday, April 6: 1
> +Thursday, April 7: 5
> +Friday, April 8: 13
> +After Friday, April 8: 85

I would argue the length of stay is NOT 5.53 days. The average time spent at
DLV might be 5.53 days but since so many arrived BEFORE and so many DEPARTED
afterwards the stay is probably 1 or 2 days longer. I know when I come, from
NZ, that we are typically there for 10+ days and often for two weeks.

Of course these figures could be distorted by the Locals arriving before
hand and leaving afterwards. Perhaps locals should be a separate category
(or are they???? Within these questions)

Newcomers / Repeaters and Experience

> Once: 35
> Twice: 17
> 3 or more: 58
>
> Approximate length of experience with regard to appearing in public.
>
> I have not yet appeared in public.: 0
> DLV 2011 was my first public exposure.: 9
> Less than one year.: 3
> 1 - 2 years: 7
> 2 - 5 years: 21
> 5 - 10 years: 21
> 10 - 20 years: 25
> More than 20 years.: 19
> This question does not apply to me.: 3
>
> About how often do you get any significant public exposure?
> Daily: 16
> Weekly or so: 28
> Monthly or so: 30
> A few times a year: 22
> Once a year or less: 4

Based on these we seem to have 70:30 ratio of returnees to new comers. 9 of
the 30 used DLV (apparently) as their first public appearance.

To me these stats are very important from a planning perspective. It says
DLV is mostly being experienced by experienced CD/TSers. While there are
varying degrees experience its mostly, apparently at the very experienced
end of the spectrum.

Does this change anything? Probably not, in fact probably reflects the mix
of activities we have allows the returnees some new options and variety as
well as enjoying the old favorites.

From another perspective it might reflect that things like the LFM really
need to be curtailed as the 70 probably aren't really going to take much
notice and many of the 30 will find it over kill and feel overloaded with
information.

I have to say the last 2-3 years I actually got to DLV I took no notice of
the LFM and in fact one year didn't even bother to look at the final
schedule until around day 3 or 4 and discovered what I had missed!!! :-) Of
course if you're with friends like Ginger and Kay and Gina and Susan they
tell you what you're doing and when you're doing it anyway!!! :-) Who needs
a schedule!

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(This posting was entered by Michelle Jenkins, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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> however outside of those activities I would suggest anyone can
> do as they please and if they want to do the Bo Peep or Fairy
> Goddess thing get some friends and go off and do it.

As Michelle has written, this was also done several years ago - during
DLV, by a veteran return attendee Lori Michaels, and one other attendee
(I cannot honestly remember her name - sorry) , went on their own to
FSE, with three others to watch from the sidelines, the public reaction
and early warning if anything negative and violent was to be started.
The two gals attracted alot of attention and they loved it, and it
remained very peaceful, with alot of pictures being taken. The crowd
circling around them were about 20ft deep. This wasn't done as a DLV
event, but on their own. It was later phrased sorta like a missionary
or representative effort. Lori has also gone on her own doing this
quite a few times before this particular time, and after. Lori's
outfits was very very nice, and it also wasn't even close to what is
common and norm of ggs walking around FSE. The other gal was more the
norm, but they walked together up and down the FSE. Lori could also
handle herself, being a tall police officer if anything got out of
hand.

For the last few years since, I've seen other people in costume that
pose regularly at the FSE. I've seen Elvis, Michael Jackson, Marilyn
Monroe, Cher, Kiss band members, living posing statues, and even gg
supposed show girls complete with huge feather hats. So our two
attendees back then may have started some sort of trend, and for those
that want to do this, it would be seen by the general public in the FSE
as more acceptable because of the every day presence of others that are
already at the FSE dressed in character.

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)