Restroom issues (was Re: HR H/C)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Donna
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Perhaps if your license says "M" you should take the extra effort and
use the unisex room near the casino. Not casting aspersions on anyone's
judgment but I have an "F" on my license and I often use unisex rooms
just to be safe

My $0.02

Donna

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(This posting was entered by Donna, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Sindee Honey
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Again.

It is ILLEGAL for a male to be in a female restroom in NV.
You can be arrested (this means booking and being locked up
while the LEOs "Sort things out" meaning taking thier sweet
time screwing with you) unless your ID reads Female (a very
easy thing to accomplish in NV) and even then it isnt a easy
trip.

Been harassed plenty since my gender marker was changed and
trust me, there is little you can do about it other than find
somewhere else to go. Suing them ? Hope you bringLOTS of cash
cause no attorney wants to take that on without long green to
line the pockets and jump start thier moral outrage. I know,
I just put "Attorney" and "Moral" in the same sentance. trust
me, thats the least of my sins.

Which begs the question, what exactly are you trying to prove
by continuing to go in to the same place? Wasnt it Ben Franklin
or another of those old dudes that said doing the same thing
over and over again and expecting different results was the
definition of insanity? Arent you an out of state visitor?
Try playing by the home rules of wherever your visiting so you
dont make things rougher on people who actually live there.
And up until last week I DID live in NV (over Ten years this
last time) and had to deal with this on a regular basis.
Seems here in Oregon things are a tad easier.

And for the argument "Thats only in government buildings" You
are at a private business, they make thier own rules and either
you follow it or they can get nasty with the trespassing charge.
NV is not friendly by any means when they dont like something.

Prostitution is fine, gambling is fine, drugs and trannies
are scary things which must be legislated out of existance.
Even when they did the state level employment equality
legislation they omitted trans because some bible thumper or
GOP wash out argued "Its a bathroom thing" so gay and lesbians
cannot be discriminated against in NV for employment. But trans
are still non human in that (and other respects such as
domestic violence etc) respect.

And I am full time 24/7. My ID reads female and I dont even
own a single piece of clothing that is exclusivly male even
my five grandbabies call me "Gramma" .

So for me it is no longer a choice. But having gone places
where some cross dresser or drag queen has riled up the
security forces makes my life OH so ever exciting thankyewverynot.

And the TS's I know in Vegas rather mirror the same sentiment. The
TGs seem to be a little more relaxed about it since they have
the luxury of reverting to male format when convinient.

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(This posting was entered by Sindee Honey, an external user of MyDLV.)

[annie]

>At this point in time they do have the law on their side as far as using
>the bathroom of the gender marker on your license. So they could simply
>say they are following the letter of the law.

Both a practicing attorney and a Las Vegas Metro PD Officer have confirmed that no such law exists, despite the persistent rumor. At least as far as Clark County, Nevada goes, there's nothing in the statutes that makes it patently illegal to use the gendered restroom of your choice.

For those who disagree, please cite the statute. Here are the links. Find it if you can.

Nevada revised statutes (state law):
http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/

Clark County Code:
http://www.municode.com/Library/clientC ... ntID=11836

Las Vegas Municipal Code:
http://www.municode.com/Library/clientC ... entID=2962

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Sindee Honey
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Nevada Law of Open or Gross Lewdness; NRS 201.210 Nevada criminal law in
NRS 201.210 provides that a person who engages in gross or open lewdness
is guilty of a gross misdemeanor on a first offense, and a category D
felony on a second offense. Thus a person convicted of a first offense
faces up to one year in jail, and on a second offense up to 4 years of
Nevada State Prison.


And the definition of open and gross ? There is NONE. Meaning that this
Category D felony can and WILL be used against you. All you have to do
is drop your drawers behind a closed stall door and you are in
violation. NV supreme court has upheld this law. And the fun part is NO
ONE has to see you do it. All it takes is someone complaining .The
arresting officer can be the only complaintent. next thing you know you
are a felon.

Go HERE for further information. And beleive this. Since you will be
dealing with security guards (sub humans who are paid minimum wage and
who have been told by law enforcement agencies that they arent
desireable as officers) they know of this law and are happy to utulize
it. Then the courts are forced to proceed with it.

K.A.R.

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(This posting was entered by Sindee Honey, an external user of MyDLV.)

[annie]

> I seem to remember (possibly incorrectly) that Annie investigated this
> years ago and found that no such law existed (in Nevada) however other
> criteria could apply to be in the wrong restroom (eg Creating a
> disturbance, nuisance, whatever)

You remember quite correctly. I posted a lengthy summary some time ago, but here is a once-over of the history of it and what transpired. Sorry for the length.

Before our first DLV in 1997, we were warned by a noted person in the TG community about this Awful Restroom Law in Las Vegas. Nobody planning to attend seemed to be too concerned about it, however.

The question came up again before DLV 1998 and I searched the statutes as best I could at the time (IANAL) and I could not find any evidence of such a law.

When the question came up yet again before DLV 1999, I booked an office call with the late Mike Riddle who was at the time a practicing attorney and Administrative Law Judge. Mike was a friend and business associate of mine and knew my background, plus he was aware of what DLV was. He did a more extensive search of the statutes using his tools, plus he posed the question in a few legal discussion groups. His conclusion included the following items:

1. There was nothing explicitly on the books prohibiting the use of a gendered restroom of one's choice.

2. However, there was nothing on the books that asserts one's right to use the restroom of one's choice.

3. The use of private property in Las Vegas, Clark County, Nevada, is "at will" of the management and they can, legally, restrict one's use of a property as a whole, or of a particular portion of a property, such as a restroom.

4. There are certain "laws of public conduct" which could be used, if appropriate, for a summons or an arrest. The two cases he cited were Trespass, where somebody was told to keep out of a restroom and insisted on using it anyway, and Disorderly Conduct, in a case where someone refuses to leave a restroom, or creates a fuss, even passively. Example was where a M-F TG walks into a ladies room and other patrons run out screaming. "If an arrest is made or a summons is issued, there must be a statute cited. It's only against the law if there's a law against it."

5. If management insisted that a M-F TG use a mens room, and an assault (or worse) occurred, it would likely be actionable against the property, and "a significant recovery" would be possible.

6. The persistent rumor about the Awful Restroom Law was most likely a misinterpretation of an obscure parks regulation which did not apply to hotel/casino/restaurant etc. settings.

His advice was to be very careful and to exit the property immediately (remove yourself from management and security's authority) in case of any difficulty.

At about the same time one of our former attendees asked a Metro PD Officer what the story was. The response was very similar to what Mike told me. It was along the line of "there is no NRS against it", but if the casino management wanted to push things, Trespass or Disorderly Conduct could be used for a summons or arrest.

>> It is ILLEGAL for a male to be in a female restroom in NV.

> Guess it would be good to know what law cover this.

IANAL, but I might rephrase this to say that it's illegal if management doesn't want you there, and this would really cover anyone on any private property, not just a M-F TG in a ladies room. That would be Trespass. Disorderly Conduct might apply in the case of any disturbance.

Our 14 year history with DLV would support that all of the above items are true.

We've never had anyone arrested or ticketed, nor threatened with legal action that I'm aware of.

We've had a few cases where attendees have been told to leave a property.

We've had several cases where attendees were told not to use a particular restroom. We've also had cases where management has offered, suggested, insisted, or demanded that our attendees use certain, mostly out of the way restrooms. All of the above appear to be legally within the rights of managment.

The worst case I remember was when an attendee used a mens room, after being told to do so by security, and an ugly scene ensued. Although what happened most likely would satisfy the definition of simple assault, no complaint was filed that I know of.

That's the War And Peace version.

[steph]

I believe that the bottom line here is that the property owner can pretty much do what they want.

The first time this happened to me (last year) I did insist that I see the property manager. The highest ranking employee that was produced for me was the on-duty security supervisor who simply parroted that I could not use the ladies restroom. period.

I was very nice about it, as was he, and I was not arrested which I knew at the time they could probably do.

All that said, it is clear that in the environment of a somewhat hazy Nevada law dictating restroom use, that the Hard Rock has taken a clear position, where they do have an option to be more friendly and lax about it.

I just thank the Lord every day that I live in New York City where there is a specific city ordanance allowing one to use the restroom (and dressing rooms) "consistent with one's gender expression". Of course, there are lots of things that I hate about New York City, but that's another story. At least I can pee there!

[annie]

> I believe that the bottom line here is that the property owner can pretty
> much do what they want.

This is what both legal opinions and experience tell us.

> The first time this happened to me (last year) I did insist that I see the
> property manager.

Experience has shown us that attempting to escalate the issue to management is ineffective. I'm sure that the standing order when dealing with minor issues is to keep things within the security department if at all possible and not to bother management.

> that the Hard Rock has taken a clear position, where they do have an
> option to be more friendly and lax about

If the Hard Rock Casino does have a formal policy on it, it's very inconsistently enforced. Your report sure surprised me, particularly with the gestapo-like response. For the past 8 years or so, reports have always been glowing.

From what we've been able to determine, very few of the casinos have a written policy regarding who is to use what restroom. This is difficult to confirm or refute (refudiate?) but experiences give the impression that any so-called policy will often be made up on the spot by those who wish to be in control of the situation.

> I just thank the Lord every day that I live in New York City

What part?

We have quite a few Gothamites, both current and former, with DLV. In particular there seems to be somewhat of a concentration in the Kensington-Boro Park area. Nora says it's the water. I say it's more likely something in the fries at Wetson's. (Not to show my real age!)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: kumiko yvonne watanabe
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> Try playing by the home rules of wherever your visiting so you
> dont make things rougher on people who actually live there.
> And up until last week I DID live in NV (over Ten years this
> last time) and had to deal with this on a regular basis.

> But having gone places where some cross dresser or drag queen
> has riled up the security forces makes my life OH so ever exciting
> thankyewverynot.

Sindee, I could not have said this better. Visitors to LV, especially
for us visitors attending DLV, we HAVE to consider the repercussions of
our actions during DLV that will stay in LV long after DLV is over.
Especially because of any kind of negative incident of this type, it
does make life in LV much harder for our local sisters that live every
day in that city after something like this happens. It remains fresh in
the minds of the security or casino or hotel staff... and it seems from
what has happened, its stays for a very long time.

Our planning of activities, and our attendees attitudes NEEDS to stay
focused and sensitive to that very issue, and kept in high
consideration, in everything that we do in LV, and try not to destroy
any positive work in progress done by our sisters that live in LV with
any venue in LV.

I wonder how many other local sisters share the same reasoning?

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(This posting was entered by kumiko yvonne watanabe, an external user of MyDLV.)

[External Poster]

This posting is from: Michelle Jenkins
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Hi

I seem to remember (possibly incorrectly) that Annie investigated this
years ago and found that no such law existed (in Nevada) however other
criteria could apply to be in the wrong restroom (eg Creating a
disturbance, nuisance, whatever)


> It is ILLEGAL for a male to be in a female restroom in NV.
> You can be arrested (this means booking and being locked up
> while the LEOs "Sort things out" meaning taking thier sweet
> time screwing with you) unless your ID reads Female (a very
> easy thing to accomplish in NV) and even then it isnt a easy
> trip.

Guess it would be good to know what law cover this.

Hugs
Michelle

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(This posting was entered by Michelle Jenkins, an external user of MyDLV.)

[bobbiemlv]

I have lived in Las Vegas for 45 yrs. and can tell you that what Annie said about the law pertaining to the bathroom issue is absolutely true. It is a matter for the individual venues to enforce or not.

These are public restrooms in private hotels. If the law is as some think it is, then you could not change a baby in the bathroom of the opposite sex and housekeepers wouldn't be allowed to clean in bathrooms of the opposite sex.

I have never heard of anyone being arrested for this or asked to leave a hotel. People who are arrested or asked to leave are the ones that argue about the rules and are kicked out or arrested for resisting. These casinos can ill-afford to turn away business when there is a viable alternative to the problem.