Some comments on the comments, part one ...

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This posting is from: annie
----------

I've been working on this off and on for about a month now
and finally I have it ready to post. Sorry if anyone thinks
there is a delay. :) And, this year I promise not to space
off posting part 2. :)

Other comments on the comments, or comments on my comments
are welcome, of course. :)

I'm breaking this up into two responses, just because of the
length. I'm not commenting on everything, just the items I
find of some kind of particular significance. I'm also not
commenting on a number of the activity suggestions here just
due to the length and the repetition of the fact that all it
takes for it to happen is for a volunteer to step forward and
make it happen.

Yes, you'll see one common theme in several of my responses:

The only thing that's stopping any of various activity
suggestions from happening is the need of volunteers to do
them. It's very nice to get activity suggestions, yes, but
what's going to make them happen for sure is for you, along
with those very suggestions, volunteering to make those
activities happen.

Likewise, there's quite a calling for a longer DLV, but that
call often goes silent when those who call for a longer event
are asked to coordinate the additional activities to make a
longer event possible. The absolute most deafening silence is
when those who clamor for a longer event are asked to assist
in recruiting the additional volunteer help to make it happen!

We had a dynamite six-day event this year. However, we came
to the point of exhausting our "voluntary volunteers", as
demonstrated by the response when we called out for some
additional help to coordinate some badly-needed "fill-in"
activities to round out the schedule. Those who responded
to this calling were not those who were doing little or
nothing, but those who were already doing multiple
activities!

Which leads us in to our first comment ... :)
. . . . . . . . . .

+We need more variety by more hosts.

This is similar to a comment made in ORG, and I'm not sure
if the same individual wrote both or not, but I think the
topic is relevant in both contexts.

Let's discuss the two points, "More variety" and "More hosts".

In general, I don't think we suffered from a lack of variety
of activities. We had a bit of everything in there, something
for everyone. About the only thing that's been lacking the
past few years are the "outdoorsy" and "touristy" things that
used to be more common on our schedule. The only reason that
these have not occurred in recent years is that nobody has
volunteered to coordinate them.

However, I do agree that the "more hosts" is a valid point.

I would really like to see our volunteer force grow to such
a level that each volunteer would coordinate or assist with
one activity, two at most, and therefore more effectively
share the load.

The count of our volunteers of voting status now sits at 41.

Those are the ones who worked on one or more activities in
either 2009 or 2010 or both. Although this number of active
volunteers is indeed high for an attendee base of 179, when
we look more closely, the "real load" is not being shared
equally. IIRC, we had seven volunteers who were involved
with three or more activities this year, and two who were
actually involved with eight.

Of those two who had a peg count of eight activities, both
of them were involved with one of more high-maintenance
activities which involved negotiation with vendors on both
of their parts, and "fronting" their own money to make the
activities happen. I'm going to name names here, these two
were Ginger and Marisa. Both of them served far above and
beyond the call of duty! Also, both of these were among
those who took on additional duties shortly before DLV.

Volunteers who are very active should also be able to take
it easy for a year every so often.

In particular, we had one very active volunteer who normally
does far more than expected who "took it easy" this year due
to some family goings-on.
. . . . .

+We need to add the Chinese restaurant stop to the Limo Tour...

Let's see, how do I put this? :)

LOL! :) How the hell, after totally pigging out at Trevi, can
you possibly be hungry 3 hours later?

Or maybe did you "pull a Seinfeld" and just have a salad at
Trevi? :) :)

+:-) Guess who?

Yes, you might as well have signed that one, Ms. Who!
. . . . .

A few comments about one particular venue here ...

+Joes's refused to bill individually and that caused some
+major unhappiness. I'd just as soon find a replacement for
+them next year.

.. and ...

+I would replace Joe's with some other more accepting upscale
+restaurant.

.. and ...

+The management at Joe's Stone Crab decided we needed to be in
+the board room away from the general public. It worked out well
+enough, but was a bit of a slam. The waiter also refused to
+help break the check down so we could pay as individuals.
+Two girls left the place when they found this was to be the
+case, and I don't blame them. While the rest of the service
+and food was excellent, I won't return.

If there are to be peaks, there must also be valleys. Joe's
just didn't work out well this year. Even though it rated
over 3.0 on the enjoyment scale, it was definitely "out of
cluster" and not enjoyed as well as other activities of its
type.
. . .

.. and ...

+Joe's was fine after I slipped the maitre d' a $20.

LOL! Yes, "Money talks and nobody walks!" :) (Dennison's?) :)
. . .

One technique I will often use when I'm host(ess)ing some
kinds of restaurant activities is to break the group up into
groups of 3-6 and use available tables. This, of course, is
not practiced by all coordinators. Some do prefer to have the
entire group seated together. I usually do not.
. . . . .

+The Paris Buffet redeemed themselves this year and went out
+of their way to accommodate us and get a Five Star Rating!

Uh, I don't recall the Paris Buffet ever being in need of
redemption. :) It's always been great whenever I've been
there. :) Anyway, I'm glad to hear it's back on the Good
List<tm>. :)
. . . . .

+You need to have a buffet lunch each day like you used to
+have. Not that many people like Sushi for lunch. I only
+made it to two lunches and I could have made it on Friday.

We're always trying things new and different, and sometimes
the changes are liked and sometimes they are not. Although
it's been kind of a tradition to do a buffet for the daily
lunch, it's not in stone, and it's really up to the ones
who volunteer to host(ess) the daily lunch to select the
venue.

If you really want to see more buffets, please feel free
to host(ess) one or more. This is an easy one. All you
really need to do is to pick a place and be there to greet
the others. Very low-maintenance. Easy ticket to voting
status! :)
. . . . .

+Always look forward to DLV. Wish it happened twice a year,
+once in the fall and once in the spring, even if the fall
+version is scaled down.

You're in luck! {shameless plug follows}

We have Pinkfest in October. It's often described as a
mini-spinoff of DLV. It's much smaller, and happens in
Chicago. This year's Pinkfest runs from Thursday, October
21 thru Sunday, October 24, with a Pre-Pink get-together
of some kind most likely happening on Wednesday.

http://www.pinkmyst.com/pinkfest/

To join the Pinkfest mailing list: pinkfest@pinkmyst.com

Or, join the Pinkfest Yahoo group at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pinkfest/
. . . . . . . . . .

+Please Please Please make the registration/online process
+less cumbersome and ridiculous!

Let's talk about this ...

I'm assuming that you're referring to the process by which
newcomers need to respond, precisely as indicated, to validate
your registration.

I'm also going to go out on a limb and guess that you were
one of those who replied with "yes I received this", or
"yes I will be there" or something like that and got one
of the admonitions to go back and REALLY read the message. :)

{sigh} I really wish we didn't have to do stuff like this!

If there's any way that we could be assured that attendees
would conscientiously read the material and agree on a few
things, we wouldn't have to do this, but unfortunately this
is often not the case. :(

One other reason why we do things that may appear to be
pedantic is that one of our biggest issues, from an organizer's
perspective, is that of no-shows. These are attendees who sign
up, but do not show up. This has been a problem ever since day
one! In 1997, over 50% of those who were "definitely coming"
did not show.

We've found that if we have a few "checkpoints" at which some
sign of life is required to stay registered, we can weed out
those who are least likely to show, keep the number of
residual no-shows somewhat manageable, and concentrate our
efforts on those who will attend and participate.

Again, I really wish we didn't have to these things, but they
appear to be necessary evils in the real world. :(
. . . . .

+An agenda for the bar crawl would be great as I tried to
+find it after EON and never did.

If you've ever been on bar crawls such as this, you'll know
that it's very difficult to plan a schedule for such in
advance, and it's even more of a challenge to keep to such
a schedule even if you truly intend to do so.

What you should do in the case where you want to join the
bar crawl or any other activity in progress where the exact
location may not be known is to phone one of the primary
DLV contact people and ask to be put through to the one in
charge of the activity. Almost everybody has a cell phone
these days and it's usually easy to make contact that way.
. . . . .

+I attended 4 different shows and loved all of them, and
+missed DLV activites because of this, maybe have someone
+lead going to these shows as it was very important to me

Yes, Las Vegas is Show Town! Shows have always been on the
DLV schedule, and we're always looking for those who want
to coordinate show activities. If you have any ideas for
shows that you think the group would like to see, please
speak up. Also (you knew this was coming, I'm sure) if you
would like to take the lead on something like this, get in
touch with our ORG group and propose something. :)
. . . . .

+I wish the limo tour had been on a different night than
+the Murder Mystery event as I would have liked to attend
+both (I attended the Murder Mystery event and loved it!).

Unfortunately there are conflicts in our schedule. However,
it's very rare that we will have the same conflicts in
successive years, so if those two activities happen again
in 2011, there's a very good chance that they will occur
on different evenings.
. . . . .

+Why doesn't Divas last over the last weekend?

.. and ...

+I think DLV should go the entire week and not end on Friday.

The only reason that DLV is not longer is the lack of
volunteer resources. That is our limiting factor. We did
have a seven-day DLV in 2004, 2005, and 2006, but it simply
proved to be too much for our volunteer force to handle. In
particular we had difficulty with "fizzle-out" endings in
those years.

Our ending in 2010 was the strongest ending we had in many
years. We ended on a high note and not on a down-hill slide.

Yes, a longer DLV is most definitely possible, but it will
take more of a commitment from a larger volunteer force to
make it happen.
. . . . .

+The wig Sergio outlet back of lot where Harmony is located.
+great prices on wigs. and dlv would be welcomed for sure.

If you (or anyone) feels like doing some homework, talk to
the staff of Serge (they pronounce it as "surge") and/or the
outlet and see if they would like to sponsor some kind of
an "Open House" for DLV, as a few of our supportive vendors
do. It doesn't have to be fancy, but a day designated as an
Open House would certainly drive DLV business to their shop.

+Fantastic indoor swap meet on decatue blvd. was fun pace to
+visit and buy cheap stuf.

We actually did FISM as part of our "official" (if there ever
was such a thing) shopping tour back in 1998. A few of the
people were a bit uneasy there at first, as the place does
have a somewhat "gritty" air to it, but everybody survived. :)

If you (or anyone) wants to coordinate a DLV trip to FISM,
please do so, and get with our ORG group to get it put on
the schedule.
. . . . .

+have the boat tour

Yes, the Lake Mead Boat Tour was missed by a number of our
people this year. The only reason that it didn't happen is
that nobody volunteered to coordinate it. If we happen to
have somebody volunteer for this in 2011, it will happen
again.

+have som group breakfasts more tours

More tours of any kind are very possible, if ... :) :)

There's another similar request for a group breakfast, I
swear, but it must be in the second part. {update - see below}

Ya know, I'm really question if a breakfast as such, in
particular one that happens at any hour prior to what is
normally considered lunch time, would work. We do get a
respectable-size gang for lunch, but not a crowd by any
means. My gut feeling is that any group meal that is
planned before 11:00am or so would not get very many
people. We have a "late" crowd, and many do not come
back to life before mid-morning and then most need at
least two hours to get ready. By that time, it's almost
time for LWG. :)

+lunches but not these all you can eat things

Ok, {squeeeeek! - mark on chalkboard} one vote against the
buffets for lunch. :)
. . . . .

+I wished the happy hours could have lasted longer. :)

Uh, they can be longer if you show up earlier. :) :) :) :)

Hey, at Pinkfest we have "Happy Half-Hour!" :) :) At least
you get a full hour at DLV! :) :)
. . . . .

+I enjoyed the Frank marino show. Maybe so great music at
+the Palazzo with Jersey boys.

+Also what I liked so much abouth the Frank Marino show is
+that had the opportunity to sit together. I originally signed
+up Viva Elvis but changed because of assigned seating.

One big advantage to the smaller shows, such as Frank Marino,
is that they are far more flexible than the larger shows. In
the case of "Divas", it is quite possible to $peak to the
$howroom $taff and di$cu$$ $ome arrangement$ to be $eated
together. :)

Yeah, people griped about the Bad Old Days in Old Vegas where
it was necessary to "grease the penguins" to get good seats
for a show, but when you have a group which wants to sit
together but pay separately, the shows such as Frank Marino
will cooperate with you.

Over the years I've coordinated both the Kenny Kerr Show and
Showgirls Of Magic, and in both cases when I mentioned that
"we will take care of the showroom staff" they were eating
out of my hand. :) In one case, David Saxe Productions gave
us an additional $10 off per ticket if we agreed to handle
the ticket sales for the group and agreed to police the line
to get in. :)

We did Jersey Boys as our featured "Big Show" in 2009. It
can easily be repeated if ... :)
. . . . .

+Morning breafast or coffee.

LOL! There's that other breakfast request. Musta missed it!

The more I think of this, the more I think a smaller
"Continental Breakfast", something simple like getting
together at a place like Starbucks, might work, but my
concern about the time still stands.

Our people do not tend to be early risers by any means!
. . . . .

+Having events scheduled close together didn't give us time
+to go back to the hotel and change for the evening so we
+skipped some DLV events that we had wanted to attend.

We do try to plan the schedule to avoid major conflicts,
but in many cases we never intended for someone to try to
attend some things sequentially. Time flies in Las Vegas
and schedules often slip. Traffic delays are common and our
attendees frequently underestimate the true amount of
get-ready and get-there time.

I would suggest that everyone very carefully consider time
when, for example, planning to attend any mid-afternoon
activity followed by an evening activity.

+Better instructions on getting to events and to parking
+structures would have saved us a lot of time.

+Being new to DLV and watching the e-mail traffic, we were
+disappointed that there wasn't much specific info (description,
+approx. cost, etc) about events until the sign-up process.
+This would have been very helpful.

This is very similar to some in-person comments I received
during DLV. There's a calling for more information sooner.

Since I'm the one who handles quite a bit of the mailings
and such, I've made a note of this and we will try to do
better on this next year.

+I'm still not sure what the pity party is so we didn't
+sign up for it.

I would have SWORN that there was a "What Is The Pity Party"
item in the Discussion Forum, but I must be on drugs. :)

We did have a bunch of "What is a/the ..." items posted just
before DLV, but the Pity Party was left out for some unknown
reason. You can review those items as:

http://www.geekbabe.com/dlv/discold/subject.html

Scroll to the bottom for the subjects begining with "W".
. . . . .

+Longer limo ride. It was over before you know it.

Actually, I thing we could have a longer Limo Tour as well,
but there are some limiting factors, one of them being the
cost of the limo. Three hours seems to be about as good of
a compromise as we can get between enjoyment and expense.
. . . . .

+Fashion discussion and demonstrations. Make-up demos.

.. and ...

+Some fashion advice from a main-stream image consultant or
+department store fashion maven.

.. and ...

+Less dependency on the CD boutiques. They don't have what
+I want to learn how to wear. More main-stream make-over
+lessons. I heard the one at Fashion Show was great and sad
+I didn't sign up for it.

The "Makeup Tips" at Bare Escentuals in Fashion Show Mall was
very good I admit, and there's nothing that says this can't
be repeated or expanded.

As for something like a fashion workshop, either self-produced
or in cooperation with a (mainstream or alternative) vendor,
all it takes is for somebody to grab the ball and run with it.
. . . . .

+The Motown show at Imperial Palace. Longer happy hour.

I'm assuming you mean the Human Nature show, Motown sounds
from Downunder. Yes, a definite possibility for 2011. All
it takes is for someone to "adopt" it and make it happen.

My guess is that this show is small enough that arrangements
could be worked out to sit together, etc.

As for a longer happy hour, you can always come early. Very
few tend to be there at the HH start times.
. . . . .

+The Stratosphere Hotel is a wonderfuly nice place to stay and
+I wish the attendees would give it a chance and find that it's
+truly a fun and clean and well priced place to stay and enjoy,
+plus the wonderful TG friendly staff. (Please add it to the
+list of hotels next year)

I've heard good things about the Stratosphere this year and last
year. I also enjoyed the buffet there the time we did it for
LWG.

If somebody in ORG wants to nominate it and the group votes to
make it a suggested hotel for 2010 (IIRC, it was for at least
one of our years) then we can add it to the list.

My only concern about the Strat is that even though it's
arguably "on the Strip", I would not recommend it for those
without a vehicle. The location is right on the edge of an
area that is a bit scary at night.
. . . . .

+We went to dinner at SW at Wynn's it would be a great activity,
+but most attendees would whine about the cost.

Agree on both parts.

We had a high-end dining option for Sunday of DLV 2010, but I
think we scared away potential participants by honestly stating
what the bill would be. :)
. . . . .

+I have yet to see it, but it sounds like the Rio Carnival
+in the sky might be fun. ... Maybe someone familiar with
+it could comment during the run up to DLV 2011.

I've seen it a few times over the years, and yes, it is
entertaining the first couple of times you see it. :) It's
free, no admission, no formality. All it takes to get it on
the schedule is to get a volunteer to say when and agree to
be there. Easy low-maintenance activity.
. . . . .

+OMG the Power Exchange ! What a riot!

Power Exchange has been mentioned off and on as a possibility
for a DLV activity. A concern has also been brought up that
it may not be appropriate for an official DLV activity. If
you think it would be so, please bring it up to ORG.

+Leatherby's Ice Cream Parlor- Ice Cream Social

Yes, I heard comments about this during DLV. All it takes
for it to happen is ... :)
. . . . .

+I think clubbing can be really nice... a group of 25-40 years
+old woman to go out to some club.

We've discussed having "velvet rope club" activities in the
past. We did have a club session at Studio 54 a few years
back but it was not that well attended and there were some
misunderstandings about complimentary passes.

Let's discuss ...

If we extrapolate the age data from the survey, we find that
only about 10% of our population falls in the under-40 age
range. My guess is that the vast majority of those in our
group who would want to do this activity would be over the
40 threshold.

I have a feeling if we put something like this on the DLV
schedule with an "under 40 only please" note, we would get
a lot of griping and push-back, and rightly so. I don't
like the idea of excluding in almost all cases, and in
particular on age.

We've had groups go to these clubs off and on over the
years with mixed reports. I know that there were some
incidents regarding restroom use at the club at the top
of the Rio a few years back, and that a group of our
people were turned away while waiting on line at one of
the clubs at Wynn (with a totally bullsh*t excuse) a
couple of years ago.

I seriously doubt if a group of our people showing up cold
at one of the trendy clubs would work well. I suggest that
if anyone wants to pursue it, reach out to the club staff
and explain the circumstances and get a reading on the type
of response you get.
. . . . .

+The Vanity Club girls went to Komol's. Chose that because of
+the great experience last year at DLV

Komol has been on our schedule in prior years, but not this
year. No particular reason, just that other venues were
selected for the dining activities. Komol would be a very
good choice for one of the dining evenings next year.
. . . . .

+Lion King
+Legends
+Donny and Marie

And again, all it takes for any of these shows to appear on
the DLV schedule is for somebody to make a proposal and to
volunteer to coordinate the activity.

+Komols

Another vote for Komol.
. . . . .

+Three of us went to the Orleans. It was nice.

We've done the Prime Rib Loft at Orleans for EON, and IIRC
there was something else there as well.
. . . . .

+I missed the Hoover Dam boat ride that I went on with DLV
+members in 2008 and 2009.

This was one activity which was most definitely missed. I'm
sure there will be an effort to bring this one back.

+We also enjoyed by ourselves Madama
+Tussaud's wax museum!

Again, good suggestion for a daytime activity.
. . . . .

+batistas hole in the wall

.. and ...

+Strings (very good italian cuisine) is very accepting,
+gracious service and reasonable prices. But limit the
+group size to accomodate their capability.

Both Battista's and Strings have been suggested off and on
over the years. No particular reason why they have not been
used. I think both are possibilities for something like the
usual Eating Out Night.

For those who have never been to Battista's, one of their
big things is that bottomless carafes of house wine are
included. You can get very gooned over dinner if you want
to! :)
. . . . .

+For first timers to Vegas they may enjoy a tour of Vegas.
+Ceasars palace and shops. Bellagio, Mirage, Paris (Eiffel
+Tower).

In the early years of DLV, we did some driving/walking tours
of the Strip. These haven't happened since 2001, IIRC. It's
very easy to bring them back. :)

+Probable no heels on this tour.

LOL! :)
. . . . .

+We went to the erotic history museum (which really is a museum).
+I am a GG and was with 2 tgirls. The employees at the museum
+actually work with the TG community in LV and were extremely
+friendly and encouraging.

We actually looked into this for a possibility for 2010, but
their schedule did not match with ours. It's a definite
possibility if somebody wants to suggest something that fits
into our schedule.
. . . . .

+I just have one scheduling question; why some events so late
+in the afternoon? The Art Tour, eg. It makes for a rea time
+crunch, re dressing for the evening. Was there a specific
+reason for this? I would have done it, but it would have
+given me too little time to change. Otherwise, another really
+great event. My only regret is that I had to leave early.

The only reason that certain things appeared in the later
afternoon timeslots is that's where the coordinator thought
the best fit would be.

Again, it's never intended for anyone to do everything, and
yes, there may be a time crunch if someone wants to do a late
afternoon thing of any type and be on time for our usual HH
start time.
. . . . .

+I'd really like to see the group pictures revert back to the
+old way.. when they were taken after the final dinner party.
+That seems to be when the majority of our group is together.

Actually, there's really nothing to "revert back" to. We've
never had a set location/time/activity at which group photos
have been shot.

In early years it often happened at what we called our "Annual
Mixer" which we haven't had for some time now. We would then
do them after the big show for a while. We've actually skipped
them in a few years. Things like this happen when they happen
because somebody makes them happen. This year it was decided
to do it at the Welcome Celebration because it was predicted
to be our largest activity. Next year it could be different
or not happen at all. It all depends on what a volunteer will
agree to do and put on the schedule.
. . . . . . . . . .

+I was pleasantly surprised at this year's DLV. Some of the
+pre-DLV discussions were somewhat contensious.

We do have to agree to disagree at times.

Disagreement and contention is often apparently magnified
by the lack of nonverbals in the stream of communication
on the net. Anyone who survived Fidonet or Usenet knows
this! :)
. . .

+And to be honest, I was concerned about Firefly as the opening
+event. I'm delighted to admit my fears were unfounded snd the
+event was a success by any measure.

I was very confident about the success of Firefly as soon as
the details were ironed out. Things like no barrier to entry,
full menu, and moderately priced drinks really helped.

A venue such as Firefly hits that "sweet spot" between comfort
and mainstreamness. (Is that a word?) Nobody could gripe that
it was not mainstream, and with our attention to some of the
issues, it was comfortable for all but the most shy.

+I do want to see the Hostess program beefed up ans expanded
+next year. Those that participated found it to be positive.

I think it's a very worthwhile activity to have. My only
concern, as I've stated, is the load it places on the
volunteer force. I think our "volunteer force exhaustion"
was very clearly brought to our attention by (among other
things) the difficulty of getting hostesses for the daily
get-togethers at two of our suggested hotels.

I think there needs to be more attention given to recruiting
these volunteers earlier in the process.
. . . . .

+Monday Firefly: Awesome
+Tuesday Joes: Sucked
+Wednesday: Trevi: Awesome

I was at two of the above three, and agree. I was not at
Joe's, but from what I heard, your note is correct. :)

+Pity party and jam session were identical. No differrnce.

Well, I was at both, and even though they were in the same
venue, and had a number of the same people, they were quite
different, from my observation at least.

+Friday: Bahama: Great. Better than last year by far.

This year's BB worked out very well! I do agree that it was
the best of all the years we've used BB.
. . . . .

+Pool party

+Gambling nite! Swimming party! Power Exchange!

+Resurrect the Arthur Murray Dance lesson

And again {broken record/stuck CD mode} all it takes for
these to happen ... :)
. . . . .

+This year's Limo Tour was a hit for me and I'll put it near
+the top of the list of 5 or 6 that I've been on! The stop at
+the Venetian was great, probably because the mimes weren't
+there and we found that great group who wanted to talk with us.
+The hike down Fremont street to the 4 Queens was great as well.

This year's Limo Tour was one of the better ones, I agree.

+The southern bell attracted quite a bit of positive attention
+and I honestly didn't expect that when I first saw her there for
+the tour. I'm glad she was there.

For an activity such as the Limo Tour, yes, an outfit like this
definitely "works" and is appropriate.

+The food venues were absolutely fantastic this year. McMillans,
+PT's, Trevi's, Bahama Breeze were my favorites.

Agree, we had some very good dining choices this year! :)
. . . . .

+these are good questions and a good size/length of questionaire.
+doesn't take too long to answer yet provides a good overview
+for the general experience.

Thanks for the feedback on this. The survey really gives
us a great amount of meaningful data. First of all it gives
close-to-immediate feedback on the yearly event, and second
it allows us to track trends from year to year.

If anything, I would wish for more of the attendees to take
the survey. A 50-60% response rate for such a survey is very
good, but I do get this feeling that many of those who do
not take the survey are those whose opinions we badly need.
. . . . . . . . . .

To be continued ... :)

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(This posting was entered by annie, an external user of MyDLV.)